I think I figured out 4th ed

[TheUltramark]

Yeah, I should have been more clear.
I wasn't trying to insult people who like lower level adventures, my point was simply that 4E eliminates the first 4 levels of adventuring, and I hadn't seen it put that way (because, I'm sure i hadn't looked hard enough )

 

[Mercurius]

Dude, sleep's been a first-level spell since, like, forever.

My bad. It has been, like, forever since I played 1E or 2E. Dude.

4E characters have a little better durability, but so do the monsters. Rolling a 4 or better on the damage die no longer kills 'every' kobold and goblin in the monster manual. 4E left "insta-kills" in the form of minions and gave characters less to fear from house cats.

Yeah, unfortunately, IMO. I personally don't like minions, especially higher level monsters as minions. It bugs me that the orc with the lost HP still has something like 45...that's 2-3 high damage attacks from a low level character, and 1-2 from a paragon character. That just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Ourph]

My bad. It has been, like, forever since I played 1E or 2E. Dude.

or 3e or 4e?

 

[JoeGKushner]

Why is this part of the RPG Industry Forum and isn't it's base assumption, one of opinion, going to just start up editionitis?

 

[Azgulor]

Why is this part of the RPG Industry Forum and isn't it's base assumption, one of opinion, going to just start up editionitis?

Good question.

 

[Henry]

This has many times been a point of discussion, long before 4e's debut; I remember a thread about the "Sweet Spot" by poster Wulf Ratbane started here years ago, talking about the 3rd edition level range of (roughly) level 3 to 13 or so, where characters were powerful enough to withstand a little punishment, but not so powerful that they did away with the laws of Fantasy Physics and Plot completely.

You'll also notice it's a LOOOONG time before 4e characters get access to truly world-bending stuff like unfettered teleports, flying for more than a round or two, invisibility of lengthy durations, etc. all for the same reason -- extending the so-called "sweet spot."

 

[Stormonu]

My bad. It has been, like, forever since I played 1E or 2E. Dude.



Yeah, unfortunately, IMO. I personally don't like minions, especially higher level monsters as minions. It bugs me that the orc with the lost HP still has something like 45...that's 2-3 high damage attacks from a low level character, and 1-2 from a paragon character. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Minions don't bother me, I've been killing 1 hit point kobolds, goblins and rats since Holmes D&D. The argument "they'd stub their toe and die" just doesn't hold water for me. I do find it humorous though that 4E needed special rules as minions so you can one-shot monsters insteas of just giving them "minimal" hit points.

 

[Fifth Element]

I do find it humorous though that 4E needed special rules as minions so you can one-shot monsters insteas of just giving them "minimal" hit points.

It's a bookkeeping simplification effort. If these minions had say 6 hp each, you'd have to track their hp in case one takes 4 points of damage from an attack.

4E minions are either up or down; you don't have to track the hp of a dozen minions.

 

[BlueBlackRed]

4th Ed - basically eliminates the first 4 levels. I pan to do this later in life, but make a 2nd ED 5th level character, and a 4th ED character 1st level of the same class and compare them....strikingly similar.

I will agree.
Prior to 4E's release I made some changes to 3.5's rules that I thought 3.5 could use and possibly would be done in 4E.
Giving PC's 3rd level hit points at level 1 allowed for some of the stress at low levels to be bypassed but still would force the group to not get too far in over their heads as a Cure Light Wounds would still only give 1d8+1 hit points back. All it did was make sure a random crit wouldn't ruin the whole party's day.

 

[pemerton]

I pan to do this later in life, but make a 2nd ED 5th level character, and a 4th ED character 1st level of the same class and compare them....strikingly similar.

I agree that 4e combat plays differently from earlier editions, but I don't think you can make the comparison just in terms of hit points/abilities.

4e combat is specifically designed to have a certain pacing/rhythm - the monsters, with their generally greater hit points and more straightforward damage-dealing abilities start out on top, but then the PCs, with their deeper resources to draw on (healing surges able to be accessed in various ways, action points, encounter/daily powers etc) turn the tables and eventually win the fight. In the course of drawing on these deeper resources, the players typically have to engage in a more complex way with the game's action economy (complex triggered actions, subtle options for movement and minors, etc) and work together as a team.

At least in my experience, just playing AD&D or 3E at 5th level won't deliver these particular features of 4e play and a 4e PC.