Tumble problems

[WHW4]

My point is that DnD isn't built to do what you want it to. So if you want to use it for your preferred style of game you'll need to make mechanical changes.

See, that's looking through narrow DnD glasses at the very adaptable d20 system. Look around. There are plenty of d20 games, from the fantastic to the grim and gritty, all using the same basic system, albeit with different assumptions on some rules and mechanics tweaks here and there.

Water Bob, you are saying the exact same thing pneumatik is. He said if you want that feel from D&D you'll need to change some things. You then say it can do all types of games.... if you change some things.

Do you consider d20 Traveller, d20 Star Wars, d20 Blue Planet, d20 Fading Suns, d20 Conan, d20 Black Company, d20 Thieves World, d20 Spy Craft...etc...as different games or all version of the same game?

I recognize that each are a version of the same game, and the d20 is quite capable of returning whatever results you are looking for, from the abstract game to the historic simulation, from the high fantasy setting to the dark, grim, and gritty reality-based games.

Actually those are all different games. To base the assumption that something is the same because they share a core mechanic (d20) is incorrect. That's like saying Monopoly and WEG Star Wars are the same because they both use d6s. Does not compute. Lawn mowers and cars use internal combustion, but they are not the same either.

 

[pneumatik]

See, that's looking through narrow DnD glasses at the very adaptable d20 system. Look around. There are plenty of d20 games, from the fantastic to the grim and gritty, all using the same basic system, albeit with different assumptions on some rules and mechanics tweaks here and there.

Do you consider d20 Traveller, d20 Star Wars, d20 Blue Planet, d20 Fading Suns, d20 Conan, d20 Black Company, d20 Thieves World, d20 Spy Craft...etc...as different games or all version of the same game?

I agree with WHW4: those are all different games. If I went to play a 3.5E game and when I arrived found out we were playing d20 Thieve's World I'd be put off (though I suspect I'd recover). To go even further, I get put off when I find out about house rules during a game. I (mechanically) build PCs on the assumption that they'll be able to do certain things. Finding out during play that they can't is really frustrating. That's not to say there's only One True Way to play. If I'm told about house rules ahead of time I have no issues with them. I don't have issues with tumble but I'd still be happy to play in a 3.5E game with your house-ruled version of tumble as long as I knew about it ahead of time.

But I'm digressing. There's a huge range of possible versions of d20 games, and I consider all of them different games.

 

[Water Bob]

Water Bob, you are saying the exact same thing pneumatik is. He said if you want that feel from D&D you'll need to change some things. You then say it can do all types of games.... if you change some things.

Well, I'm glad he agrees with me, then!

Actually those are all different games. To base the assumption that something is the same because they share a core mechanic (d20) is incorrect.

I agree with WHW4: those are all different games.

See, that's a whole different argument with many proponents on each side. Is a game mechanic "the game"?

Some say, "No, it's not. D&D has different game mechanics for its different editions. The mechanic is definitely not "the game".

Then again, some say it is: "When you play a GURPS game, you're playing the same game no matter which genre you're playing in. If you play a d20 game, you're playing the same game no matter which universe you're exploring."

At least one fairly major game publisher goes with the second interpretation. Mongoose Publishing calls the game mechanic that they use for Traveller by the same name. It is "Traveller" no matter if you're playing Babylon 5, Hammer's Slammers, Traveller, or any other game they release using the same mechanic. Mongoose has released supplements for "Traveller" that have nothing to do with what most people call Traveller (and which they refer to as the "Third Imperium universe vs teh Babylon 5 universe).

So, yeah, it's a big debate.

If one picks up a new d20 game set in a universe that he is unfamiliar, he still may think he's playing the same game because he pretty much already knows the rules. He's just got to find out where this new game veers from the norm.

If this guy's brother picks up a new d20 game, he may feel that the game is an entirely new game because its set in a Old West time period vs a high fantasy world.

In the end....why argue stuff like this?

Life's too short, right?

That's like saying Monopoly and WEG Star Wars are the same because they both use d6s. Does not compute. Lawn mowers and cars use internal combustion, but they are not the same either.

Bad comparison. Monopoly and WEG Star Wars (brilliant RPG, btw) both use d6's, but they both don't use the same game mechanics as, say, d20 Thieves World and d20 D&D.

 

[WHW4]

Bad comparison. Monopoly and WEG Star Wars (brilliant RPG, btw) both use d6's, but they both don't use the same game mechanics as, say, d20 Thieves World and d20 D&D.

Meh. I think the comparison is apt enough to illustrate my point. SW: Saga and 4th Edition both use d20 and are different as well. I guess we can just agree to disagree.

Anywho, a few options to fix your issues with tumble have been suggested; thoughts on those?

 

[Water Bob]

Anywho, a few options to fix your issues with tumble have been suggested; thoughts on those?

I'm still mulling over the various comments. I enjoy reading the various points of view even if I don't share the view.

Right now I would say that I'll leave Tumble as is, without any rule changes. I'll describe it and think of it more as a watered-down Prince of Persia (the movie) type movement, which is somewhat believeable if you "forget" the climbing straight up walls and such. And, I'll be harsh and realistic when considering what the Tumble PC is attempting and what he is wearing. The less he wears, the less I'll throw circumstance penalties on it.

 

[Dandu]

I am afraid I still do not understand the logic behind applying circumstance penalties to Tumble based on gear and clothing, but as long as the penalty is equally applied to other situations such as balancing, climbing, jumping, grappling, tripping, disarming, attacking, dodging, casting spells, drawing weapons, sneaking around, riding, dismounting, charging, running, walking, and etc, I guess that would be fair.

I mean, while you could just assume that the PC is professional enough to have his gear arranged properly, that would take all the fun out of the game and break immersion with its blatant unrealism and disregard for verisimilitude.

 

[Water Bob]

I am afraid I still do not understand the logic behind applying circumstance penalties to Tumble based on gear and clothing, but as long as the penalty is equally applied to other situations such as balancing, climbing, jumping, grappling, tripping, disarming, attacking, dodging, casting spells, drawing weapons, sneaking around, riding, dismounting, charging, running, walking, and etc, I guess that would be fair.

I mean, while you could just assume that the PC is professional enough to have his gear arranged properly, that would take all the fun out of the game and break immersion with its blatant unrealism and disregard for verisimilitude.

Let me help you understand, then. When you are balancing, climbing, jumping, grappling, tripping, disarming, attacking, dodging, casting spells, drawing weapons, sneaking around, riding, dismounting, charging, running, and walking...

....you are not doing it while walking on your hands.



[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqNRZ5iVOJM&feature=related"]TUMBLE ATTACK[/ame]



[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbsWHsiFQ84"]TUMBLING[/ame]



I can certainly understand that someone spinning by you like that wold be immune to Attacks of Opportunity while moving through your threat range. That sucker would be hard to hit.

What I can't fathom is this type of thing happening with the hero carrying gear and wearing armor, even if the character isn't encumbered.

I'd like to stick a sword belt on one of these tumblers with a few pouches and what-not haning off it, plus a dagger or maybe a throwing axe--and slap a waterskin around their torso, then watch them tumble. Maybe their gear doesn't get thrown everywhere, but at least one of them will probably take a spill when the sword's scabbard flings between their legs at an inopportune moment during the tumble.

 

[Dandu]

And you are when you're tumbling, are you?

 

[Water Bob]

And you are when you're tumbling, are you?

Not every tumble check is as strong as what is shown in the videos above, I'll grant you. But what is shown above is certainly possible via the tumble skill.

Maybe we have a difference of opinion on what is being represented by the use of the skill. Would you say that the ability to tumble through a threatened square without provoking an Attack of Opportunity is akin to the videos I like above?

If no, then I need to understand what you think is happening, then, in order to be immune to attacks that way.

 

[Dandu]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F1Cat-S0e8]YouTube - Do A Barrell Roll, Kirk![/ame]