Tumble problems

[Water Bob]

You missed the question, Dandu. So many people on this thread have spoken that they look at Tumbling as what you show in those videos, but also as more reasonable, more realistic forms of dodging. What you show in those videos are exactly what I think of Tumbling and why I'm having so much of a problem with it.

Those are choreographed fights, impossible in real life. This is why I said I wasn't looking for Prince of Persia style wild stuff.

I want to see an example of what people think Tumbling is besides the wild and crazy Asian dance stuff.

The reason: I can't think of one example of a movie fight where Tumbling is realistic.

And, when I say "realistic", I mean "heroic realistic". Bond's fights in Casino Royale are gritty and realistic in a heroic-realistic way. They are by no means examples of real hand to hand fights. For that, we have Ultimate Fighting and such.



So, the challenge remains. Can anybody think of a scene, or show me a scene, of Tumbling that isn't ultra-human, in the vein of the Asian martials arts movies?



BTW: I'd buy the Bomb-maker chase scene in Casino Royale as a more realistic use of the Tumbling skill, especially since that type of movement is possible in real life, but I would still have a hard time trying to fathom why that type of movement, which is half the speed of normal combat movement by the game rules, would be excempt from Attacks of Opportunity.

Plus, that's a chase scene, not a fight.

 

[Dandu]

Those are choreographed fights, impossible in real life. This is why I said I wasn't looking for Prince of Persia style wild stuff.

... Do you want video of real life fights? Because I can tell you now, any movie fight scene you get is going to be choreographed and probably impossible in real life.

I want to see an example of what people think Tumbling is besides the wild and crazy Asian dance stuff.

What about those instances of tumbling in the videos that were not the wild and crazy Asian dance stuff?

 

[Water Bob]

... Do you want video of real life fights? Because I can tell you now, any movie fight scene you get is going to be choreographed and probably impossible in real life.

I acknowledged that above. I'm looking for realistic, not real. Heroic-realistic.

I think the fights in Centurion are fantastic. That's what I try to emulate in my game.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b6got4G4Ys"]YouTube - Fight scene from the film Centurion 2010.[/ame]

Don't see any use of the Tumble skill in there, though.



Here's a one-on-one duel. Again, no Tumble skill check.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTGZpSh1c20"]YouTube - Centurion Clip - Virilus Vs Etain.mov[/ame]



Here's a montage from Valhalla Rising. Again, it shows what type of fighting I'm describing in my game, but there is no Tumbling to be seen.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf309MyZw2I&feature=related"]YouTube - Valhalla Rising: Tribute to One Eye[/ame]



Even Spartacus, which I'll grant you does have an unbelieveable Tumble in it from time to time (as with the end of the 1st season where Spartacus is catapulted to the balcony), keeps the Tumbling to a bare minimum.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o1HsidznrM&feature=fvst[/ame]

What about those instances of tumbling in the videos that were not the wild and crazy Asian dance stuff?

Care to point out which video and at which time-mark? Do that, and I'll look at what you mean.

 

[Dandu]

Things that could conceivably be covered under the Tumble skill that are not wild and crazy Asian dance stuff.

Drunken Master II:
1:07 Jackie ducks and rolls away as the boss' leg comes crashing down on the table.
1:47 Jackie backs away from a punch the boss throws at him by bending forward and moving back
2:10 Jackie is pulled down by a minion, so he kicks the minion and then rolls away as the boss kicks at him.
2:18 Minion trips Jackie with a red hot pipe. Jackie rolls out of the way just before the pipe hits him a second time.

First Strike
1:58 Jackie dives out of the way, picks up a dragon head, and uses it as a weapon.
2:34 Jackie rolls along an extended staff, gets right up next to the wielder, and disarms him.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SF-5Tq1E70"][/ame]

 

[Water Bob]

Things that could conceivably be covered under the Tumble skill that are not wild and crazy Asian dance stuff.

I'm not trying to be a crap-head, and I do appreciate you marking those times. But, I looked at them, and it still looks like wild and crazy Asian dance stuff to me.

 

[Dandu]

Rolling out of the way of an attack is crazy Asian dance stuff now?

Here's a one-on-one duel. Again, no Tumble skill check.

One thing I notice about the fights you linked to is that they all seem to be fought by the equivalent of Fighters and Barbarians... classes that don't get Tumble. Tumble is often found on finesse classes, which in D&D terms would be monks, rogues, swashbucklers, and etc.

Maybe you would like a good Zorro movie?

Incidentally, and I realize that this is probably a pedantic point, but are those above fights you posted realistic, or do they appear to be realistic? I bring this up because Reality Can Be Unrealistic.

 

[Jimlock]

That you address me in this way means that you have started off making some very wrong assumptions about me and my game, so many in fact that I won't have time to correct them all. Some facts about my game though:

Forgive me, but i fail to see how, by saying that what weakens skills is the abundance of magic, is making assumptions about you and your game. If some of what i've said has offended you in some way, i apologize for it was not my intention.

a) I tend to in an average session expect more skill checks to be made that attack rolls.
b) I play a low magic game. The PC's in my current party have hit 4th level, and between them they have 2 magic weapons and no magic armor.
c) NPC spellcasters beyond the 7th level of ability are very rare. In the current nation of 300,000 individuals, only 2 wizards, 1 shaman, and 1 cleric exceed that ability. None are above 9th level. Only one of those do I expect the PC's to interact with, and he's the BBEG.
d) PC wizards gain no spells as a result of gaining levels. Every spell they desire they must obtain through effort.
e) Beyond the level of a few potions, scrolls, and inexpensive items that can be created by 3rd level wizards (like lamps that shed continual light) magic items are not purchable in my game.

In the most general of terms, it so happens that my game(s) share many of the above mentioned criteria.
In my game(s) as well... spellcasters are few... magical items are rare... generally, money cannot buy magic, only some minor cantrips like you suggest... spells have to be found to be learned (and are very hard to find)... specific components are rare and hard to find... sorcerers do not exist (magic, other than the innate special abilities of monsters require study to be manipulated) Psionics do not exist...( i just hate them, no explanation required) divine spellcasters are very restricted by their deities in matters of spellcasting (meaning that a divine spellcaster has to follow/serve the code/moral/goals of his deity pretty strictly, otherwise there are repercussions to his "connection" with the deity (reduced spells/spellcasting-ability), which also makes the choice of a deity not to be taken as lightly... transmutations (alter self, polymorph, shapechange) can only be possible if the caster has some personal understanding of the form he is about to take, through study-acute observation (the caster has to have seen the creature, and must have studied it in some way in order to assume its form)...skills play a major role (as much as Talents/Skills/Knowledge play a primordial role in White Wolf's game)... well you get the picture...

And yet, even with those as my default assumptions, I still contend that without rule changes from the RAW, skills are minor in scope and utility and would be vastly overshadowed by magic. Because, as you yourself agree, "Spells can do all the above and more."

Your wrong about how this ends up balancing on two basic counts. First of all, it doesn't matter how abundant magic is in the world, it only matters how abundant it is in the party. By 10th level or so, there is little that you can do with a skill that won't be overshadowed by what your colleague can do with magic. Secondly, while its true that at low levels spell-casters depend more strongly on magic than martial classes, by 10th level or so the reverse becomes true. Without magic no one can defend themselves, and its the spell-casters that are never without magic. Thus, sticking to the RAW, at some point your low magic game starts to constrain those without magic even more than those with it.

Allow me to disagree. It does matter how abundant magic is in the world, for it affects how easy it is for the spellcasters to obtain knowledge/power. If a DM manages to effectively keep a short leash on the spells lists, components, and transmutation knowledge, he might be giving spellcasters a harder time during the early levels (even that is debatable), but later on it pays out for spellcasters do not become super powerful. No matter what level a spellcaster has, if his spells are few in number, he can only be extra powerful in specific topics, not throughout the game. His few spells have to be chosen and used very wisely so as to overcome the variety of obstacles the DM throws at him. Even more, the value and strength of martial classes does not diminish, for when the spellcaster strikes a dead end (and this will happen quite often if a spellcaster is not let loose) his martial buddies are going to save the day. As far as i have experienced them, solutions like this provide for a balanced game.

 

[Hassassin]

See, this is the root of my problem. I can't picture how someone moves through a threatened area SLOWER than normal (half speed is at a walk) and gets the benefit of not provoking AoO's where as a normal fighter, dodging, movie, feinting, DOES is subject to AoO's in the same space.

Halving the movement speed doesn't mean the tumbler walks. It means he waits for openings, dodges blows and doesn't move in a straight line. He can try to do it faster by waiting less, dodging only when necessary, but that's much harder so -10 to the check.

 

[Hassassin]

And, would you allow a character wearing a backpack with 40 lbs of gear in it to "roll in-between the feet of a large monster" even if the acutal weight kept the character at a light load due to his STR?

That backpack wouldn't get in the way? At least draw a penalty modifier to the Tumble throw? (That's what I'd do...allow it, but throw in a circumstance penalty, probably -2).

Of course realistically any extra lb. would make it slightly harder to tumble. But each extra lb. would also make you slightly slower. The light/medium/heavy load/armor is a simplification, as is the armor check penalty, but it is meant to model precisely the issue you have.

Incidentally, moving to modifiers it doing the opposite as what 3e->3.5e did to Swim, so you might want to go all the way: -1 per 5lbs of gear. Or maybe per 10lbs or 20lbs if tumbling in gear is easier than swimming, which I at least think it is. But then you'd probably want to get rid of the light load limit.

 

[jonesy]

Halving the movement speed doesn't mean the tumbler walks. It means he waits for openings, dodges blows and doesn't move in a straight line. He can try to do it faster by waiting less, dodging only when necessary, but that's much harder so -10 to the check.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu2nKcfMS9A]YouTube - Muhammad Ali Dancing[/ame]