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D&D 4E The "We Can't Roleplay" in 4E Argument

I'll also note that when running 1e, 2e and 3e games with minis, I had much the same experience. Of course the time elapsed varied with each system but once you start pulling people out of their heads, they don't focus on the RP as much.
My experience is quite different. I find players who like to role-play, which is to say, to pretend to be an elf with a favorite color and daddy issues --ie, with some characterization to go along with their character class-- will do so regardless of the use of a battlemat and minis.

Conversely, players who prefer characters like Melf the Elf IV, who live only for combat, treasure and levels, will not be made significantly deeper in the absence of representational aids.

Also, you can role-play during fight scenes. Why should characterization and character immersion stop when the swords come out? It doesn't in my campaigns. Some of the most interesting character bits came from combat, such as the battle cries, "Not in the face!", and "For Universal Healthcare!", which neatly summed up the PC's Meiji Kitsune and Lizzie Lutzmueller, respectively.
 

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Wow, so to be a good poet one has to be good at Diplomacy, Intimidate and Insight and be charismatic as well...
No.

In lieu of a Poetry skill, I used raw Charisma, Diplomacy, Intimidation, and Insight to represent my PC's poetic ability.

That's all. I said nothing of requirements, or that I was creating a some kind of detailed replacement system.

I wrote "I used these skills", not "You must use all these skills, and/or only these."

Hope those are on your trained list... and you have more than 3 skills...oh yeah and make sure you pick a class that actually uses charisma.
I just as well could have used another stat/skill set for a different character who has a different style of poetry. For instance, I could have used...

Nature - this would produce poetry resembling haiku.
Arcana - this would produce poetry resembling a lot of Yeats, or the work of John Ashbery (that's a joke, BTW)
History - for stuff like "The Charge of the Light Brigade".
Religion - for The Song of Songs, Which is Solomon's.
Streetwise - like Beat poetry, Amiri Baraka, Public Enemy.
Perception - for concrete poetry, like - "So much depends upon a red wheelbarrow..."

I will admit it would be harder to justify a form of poetry based on STR/CON/DEX. If I worked at it, I probably could, I'm fairly inventive, especially when I'm looking for simple solutions to problems.

So in this system I need 3 skills in order to be a decent poet...
Just a reminder: I never said that.

...what is the advantage to this again if I just want to be good at poetry?
The advantage is in what I was actually suggesting. Use a character's adventuring skills to represent various kinds of non-adventuring abilities.
 

I'm curious... when dealing with so many different and diverse types of campaigns as D&D has generally been used for... where does the line between "story" element and "mechanical" element get drawn? I mean what makes one element a story element and another a mechanical element?

I'm afraid that, on this point, my argument is going to sound a bit circular, but try to follow me. The division between story elements and mechanical elements is generally the divide between concrete dice rolling and role play elements. That is modified by the game system, though, as not all games have the same mechanics, nor consider the same things to require mechanics. Certainly story elements can be worked into a mechanical process but those things must be made to fit within the existing mechanical framework, when found necessary. They don't require the creation of additional mechanics.

I, quite frankly, shudder to think how the people who require a skill for everything would have done in my original 1e campaign. They never would have considered doing what the Paladin did, play the lute in front of the gathered nobility of Greyhawk in Keoland, because it wasn't codified to the Nth degree. Their game experience would have suffered, because they would have spent their time arguing that they needed to have a skills system added to the game.

Our life experience tends to colour how we see things should work, within the universe of the game. We hand-wave the experiences of others, as being unimportant to game play, but our own are so important that they MUST be used. Because I'm a musician or artist, there must be art and musi8c skills to codify how well you can perform. My own experience in science is, however, handwaved off with comments like, "It's magic."

Just play the game. If the mechanics don't work as intended or stated, that's one thing; fix it. If something isn't written into the mechanics, just go with it. There will be a way to handle it.

I think these skills (Intimidate, Insight, Bluff, etc.) can be used to enhance a particular type of performance... with certain people... perhaps. But they don't encompass the actual technical skill needed for a performance in a professional capacity. Otherwise a con-man or a bully should be able to bluff and intimidate any joke they've heard into being the funniest thing ever... and I'm not buying that.

I'm afraid that you're missing my point. You can't use intimidate to make a rote joke funny, but you can use it in crafting a new joke, to help make it funny, and by helping to create the narrative. How good is a Farmer's Daughter joke, without a scary farmer? Bluff can likewise be used in its creation but it can also be used in the telling, as a measure of comic timing.

Check some of the skill challenges, in published modules. There's a reason why you can't spam one skill, all the way through them ;)
 

The advantage is in what I was actually suggesting. Use a character's adventuring skills to represent various kinds of non-adventuring abilities.

I was hoping you would see how for some poeple this isn't more advantageous than having an actual poetry skill... for some it could be tedious, too abstract and based soleley on what any one person (or the group) thinks is "justifiable"... my knowledge of trees helps me create haikus!!!... that was a joke... I think. ;)
 

People who think that skills like Intimidate don't figure into telling a joke, saying that they can't be intimidated into thinking that a comic is funny, fail to grasp what is needed in order to craft a good joke or story; making a believable one. Having an appropriate background makes it possible to do something like that, but having the appropriate skills makes you good at it. In game terms, of course.

First, I strongly disagree with that.

Second, the statement still misses the point that it doesn't matter how well a joke is crafted if you can't tell the damn thing well to the audience.
 




Not missing that either.

I just have a very different perspective- being both a gamer and a performer- and depth of feeling about how this SHOULD work vs how 4Ed handles it.

IMHO, all this talk of bluff and other skills either leaves the final question of the quality of the performance delivered unanswered or reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of what performance is...the how and why performers and audiences interact.
 
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Not missing that either.

I just have a very different perspective- being both a gamer and a performer- and depth of feeling about how this SHOULD work vs how 4Ed handles it.

Then you REALLY need to read my follow-up post. 4e handles it how 4e handles it. Can't handle how it works? Then you need to find another game system because it would seem that the system is more important to you, than the play.
 

Into the Woods

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