As a strong obese guy in HS, I was routinely outperformed in the mile my weak skinny guys, though...
How important is Con to the game?
- Thread starter fireinthedust
- Start date
As a strong obese guy in HS, I was routinely outperformed in the mile my weak skinny guys, though...
I think it really depends on what you intend to do with the stat in question.
In AD&D, your stats determined a lot of basic stuff about your character. Constitution was as important as the rest, and a lot more than some *cough*Charisma*cough*; there were a pile of things that would force you to roll system shock, to say nothing of the fact that Con was resurrection fuel. The extra hit points if you had a 15 or better were icing.
In 3E, Constitution was in its heyday as a stat. Never had a good Con been more important. With the threshold for bonus hit points reduced to a mere 12, Con became every wizard's best friend--a middling-good Con score and a cheap Con booster could literally double a wizard's hit points. Other classes weren't quite so dependent, but those extra hit points were still real nice to have, and the Fort save was nothing to cry about either. Elves, who had ruled the roost in AD&D, were suddenly demoted to a second-string race thanks to the Con penalty.
4E is the one edition where I think you have a valid point. For the most part, the only reason to have a good stat in 4E is for powers and class features. Constitution suffers compared to the other stats because so few classes use it as their primary attack stat; offhand, the only examples I can think of are a couple of warlock pacts, and those look like they were thrown in as an afterthought when somebody said, "Hey, we should really have classes that use all the ability scores. Strength has warlords and fighters. Dexterity has rogues and rangers. Intelligence has wizards, Wisdom has clerics, Charisma has warlocks. Wait, that's only five, what about Constitution? Um... I guess Con can have half of the warlock, it's a sucky class anyway."
In AD&D, your stats determined a lot of basic stuff about your character. Constitution was as important as the rest, and a lot more than some *cough*Charisma*cough*; there were a pile of things that would force you to roll system shock, to say nothing of the fact that Con was resurrection fuel. The extra hit points if you had a 15 or better were icing.
In 3E, Constitution was in its heyday as a stat. Never had a good Con been more important. With the threshold for bonus hit points reduced to a mere 12, Con became every wizard's best friend--a middling-good Con score and a cheap Con booster could literally double a wizard's hit points. Other classes weren't quite so dependent, but those extra hit points were still real nice to have, and the Fort save was nothing to cry about either. Elves, who had ruled the roost in AD&D, were suddenly demoted to a second-string race thanks to the Con penalty.
4E is the one edition where I think you have a valid point. For the most part, the only reason to have a good stat in 4E is for powers and class features. Constitution suffers compared to the other stats because so few classes use it as their primary attack stat; offhand, the only examples I can think of are a couple of warlock pacts, and those look like they were thrown in as an afterthought when somebody said, "Hey, we should really have classes that use all the ability scores. Strength has warlords and fighters. Dexterity has rogues and rangers. Intelligence has wizards, Wisdom has clerics, Charisma has warlocks. Wait, that's only five, what about Constitution? Um... I guess Con can have half of the warlock, it's a sucky class anyway."
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Herremann the Wise
First Post
Firstly, good topic and interesting discussion; I love this sort of stuff. The following is my take on constitution.
- A measure of skill in turning potentially serious blows into lesser ones
- The ability to consistently perform at a high level even under extreme combat pressure
- The character's physical and mental endurance to keep going in battle; to not give up or give in
- A measure of luck and perhaps fortune in getting out of physically difficult situations
- A reflection of possible divine favor lent the character by the gods
- A measure of inner power to perform at the very limits of a character's potential.
What I would prefer of course is that hit points act as a shield and buffer that increases as they increase in power; while leaving the limits of physical damage fairly static across an adventurer's career. Physical damage is represented by wounds measured in damage points and the amount of damage that a character can take is equal parts strength and constitution related.
I imagine fortitude as an entity that can improve and decline depending upon conditions. It represents the body's capacity to fight afflictions and endure. A character that is fatigued or exhausted has had their fortitude momentarily affected. A character poisoned or diseased (for some diseases) has also had their fortitude affected while their constitution as an abstract limit has not been affected. Given time and successful healing, a character's fortitude will return back to that potential limit. I imagine it possible for a character to suffer an affliction so severe that it permanently affects their constitution. At the same time, I would also imagine that a character's constitution is the ability score that can most readily be permanently improved (along with perhaps charisma while dexterity and wisdom are perhaps the ability scores that are most difficult to improve).
And so I suppose I see constitution as an important abstract cog that partners the more immediate and applicable Fortitude. Like all ability scores, it represents a physical or experiencial limit that a character can possibly achieve at that point in their career. [I also like the idea that ability scores have their own genetic-hard-coded limit that can never be exceeded by any means except perhaps the most powerful enchantments).
I think a sister thread to this one, untangling the mess that is dexterity, armor class, initiative, reflex saves/defences and dodge bonuses would be equally enlightening.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
I'm of the opinion that constitution and health should only have a minor impact upon hit points. If I was to define hit points I would say they would be made up of some of the following (dependent upon class/experiences/background):
- A measure of skill in turning potentially serious blows into lesser ones
- The ability to consistently perform at a high level even under extreme combat pressure
- The character's physical and mental endurance to keep going in battle; to not give up or give in
- A measure of luck and perhaps fortune in getting out of physically difficult situations
- A reflection of possible divine favor lent the character by the gods
- A measure of inner power to perform at the very limits of a character's potential.
What I would prefer of course is that hit points act as a shield and buffer that increases as they increase in power; while leaving the limits of physical damage fairly static across an adventurer's career. Physical damage is represented by wounds measured in damage points and the amount of damage that a character can take is equal parts strength and constitution related.
I will also throw the idea of a fortitude defence in here (fresh from 4e but twisted around somewhat). Where as constitution as an ability score represents a more abstract and static potential physical limit; fortitude is more a reflection of a character's physical state now.
I imagine fortitude as an entity that can improve and decline depending upon conditions. It represents the body's capacity to fight afflictions and endure. A character that is fatigued or exhausted has had their fortitude momentarily affected. A character poisoned or diseased (for some diseases) has also had their fortitude affected while their constitution as an abstract limit has not been affected. Given time and successful healing, a character's fortitude will return back to that potential limit. I imagine it possible for a character to suffer an affliction so severe that it permanently affects their constitution. At the same time, I would also imagine that a character's constitution is the ability score that can most readily be permanently improved (along with perhaps charisma while dexterity and wisdom are perhaps the ability scores that are most difficult to improve).
Is really something I would fold into fortitude as above.
And so I suppose I see constitution as an important abstract cog that partners the more immediate and applicable Fortitude. Like all ability scores, it represents a physical or experiencial limit that a character can possibly achieve at that point in their career. [I also like the idea that ability scores have their own genetic-hard-coded limit that can never be exceeded by any means except perhaps the most powerful enchantments).
I think a sister thread to this one, untangling the mess that is dexterity, armor class, initiative, reflex saves/defences and dodge bonuses would be equally enlightening.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
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Of course. You don't need stats at all. You could just use the skills, saves, and hp values without them having any attributes behind them. Just set them to a fixed, average base.
Since you mentioned video games:
Consider the evolution from Diablo2 to Diablo3: In the former you could distribute attribute points at every level-up. In the latter attributes improve using a fixed pattern tied to your class. So, effectively, Diablo3 doesn't have attributes any more, since the starting values are also fixed.
I could easily see D&D 5e go in the same direction: simply use fixed attribute scores derived from your choice of class/race/theme/whatever - or get rid of them entirely.
Argyle King
Legend
Is the discussion limited to D&D? There are games which use things other than Con and the general D&D setup.
For example, GURPS has basic attributes and secondary characteristics which are based on the basic attributes.
ST (strength) - measures physical power and bulk
DX (dexterity) - measures a combination of agility, coordination, and fine motor ability
IQ (intelligence) - broadly measures brainpower
HT (healthy) - Health measures energy and vitality.
HT is probably the closest analogue to Con, but you also have FP (fatigue points) as one of your secondary characteristics. It's possible to have someone who has a high HT and resists diseases and such, but lower FP. There are also traits such as fit, unfit, and resistance to disease which can be applied to a character for a little more granularity if you desire the extra detail.
For example, GURPS has basic attributes and secondary characteristics which are based on the basic attributes.
ST (strength) - measures physical power and bulk
DX (dexterity) - measures a combination of agility, coordination, and fine motor ability
IQ (intelligence) - broadly measures brainpower
HT (healthy) - Health measures energy and vitality.
HT is probably the closest analogue to Con, but you also have FP (fatigue points) as one of your secondary characteristics. It's possible to have someone who has a high HT and resists diseases and such, but lower FP. There are also traits such as fit, unfit, and resistance to disease which can be applied to a character for a little more granularity if you desire the extra detail.
delericho
Legend
The game doesn't need Con, any more than it needs Cha, or Str, or indeed any ability scores at all. You could just as well eliminate them, and replace their effects with feats, traits, or whatever you want to call them.
However, the existing ability scores are sufficiently tied into the game that simply removing them is somewhat problematic. I would have to question therefore whether it's really worth the effort.
However, the existing ability scores are sufficiently tied into the game that simply removing them is somewhat problematic. I would have to question therefore whether it's really worth the effort.
Bedrockgames
I post in the voice of Christopher Walken
I think in D&D this is the case, at least up to 4E. But with my limited experience playing 4th edition, having 6 core stats seems less important (if I recall correctly it now works so you can assign one of two stats to a given save or attack---again my experience with 4E is very limited).
delericho
Legend
That's true, but 4e also uses the stats for other things - Str for damage bonuses, Con for starting hit points, different skills...
Also, if you are going to merge Str with Con, you probably also need to merge Dex with Int and Wis with Cha to maintain the balance. And, of course, the argument for merging Dex with Int is rather less clear!
