Dealing with logical but gamebreaking requests

[Crazy Jerome]

I'll usually think of the more obvious things that could come up, but when I don't, I'm too lazy to go for the bathroom gambit. What we are ultimately talking about here are the conceits of the campaign. Just what are the limits of strategic play, versus the rolling with the action adventure story?

I simply let the players decide. Then I ruthlessly enforce the logic of their decision on the conceits of the game. It is explicitly framed this way. So for this particular question, they ask, "Can't the researchers cast a ritual that will give us some information?" If I don't have a plan already, I'll immediately turn that around as, "I don't know. Do you want moderately capable but small organizations being able to cast such rituals, for this kind of stuff?"

Then the players debate for a few minutes, and whatever they decide, we do. If they say no, then they are voting for the conceit of marginally less strategic play here in favor of rolling with the story. The neutral and enemy NPCs will thus respect that conceit for the campaign. If they say yes, then they are voting for marginally more strategic play, and the neutral and enemy NPCs will certainly use that to their advantage going forward.

I never get any grief about railroading or shortchanging their plans. I do get a bit of grief for framing the choice this way, and thus throwing it back in their laps. Plus, the ensuing discussion always gives me great feedback about the nuances of how they want the campaign run.

 

[Bullgrit]

Back around 1990, I got together a new game group of 6 guys. To start the AD&D1 campaign, I basically told them that there's a bounty on bugbears -- turn in a bugbear ear, earn gold. (There was more to it than that, but that's where the problem cropped up.)

The elf fighter/magic-user decided to use a cantrip, (can't remember the specific one), to change pig ears into bugbear ears to turn in for bounty. I went along with it for a couple times, but then the Player just kept on pushing, trying to find more pig ears. At one point, before the party had even left town for any adventure, the elf took the entire party to a pig farm to get ears. He tried to get a farmer to let him crop the ears off his pigs, and I had the farmer reply in confusion.

After a few minutes of haggling, I looked around the table, at the other Players whose PCs were loitering around the pig farm -- fighters, magic-users, clerics, thieves, etc. -- and said, "Is this really how you want to play?"

They all basically said, "Screw this, we're going hunting bugbears." The elf Player was incredulous, but he went with them to adventure.

Bullgrit

 

[S'mon]

Generally I only use the laptop for background music! We pretty much play from Heroes of the Fallen Lands right now, so I actually didn't have my PHB nearby. I might start though, because I am thinking I'd like to introduce rituals into the game for the PCs, as opposed to the occasional NPC ritual casting that we've had so far (e.g., Comprehend Language). I think it will add some interesting new options and roleplaying opportunities without adding any extra complexity to combats.

I think the PHB ritual casting rules are also handy for getting a handle on world building, as we've discussed here - if you've decided the sages know eg 8th level rituals you won't freeze up when players ask why they haven't clairvoyed the missing person/object.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Back around 1990, I got together a new game group of 6 guys. To start the AD&D1 campaign, I basically told them that there's a bounty on bugbears -- turn in a bugbear ear, earn gold. (There was more to it than that, but that's where the problem cropped up.)

The elf fighter/magic-user decided to use a cantrip, (can't remember the specific one), to change pig ears into bugbear ears to turn in for bounty. I went along with it for a couple times, but then the Player just kept on pushing, trying to find more pig ears. At one point, before the party had even left town for any adventure, the elf took the entire party to a pig farm to get ears. He tried to get a farmer to let him crop the ears off his pigs, and I had the farmer reply in confusion.

After a few minutes of haggling, I looked around the table, at the other Players whose PCs were loitering around the pig farm -- fighters, magic-users, clerics, thieves, etc. -- and said, "Is this really how you want to play?"

They all basically said, "Screw this, we're going hunting bugbears." The elf Player was incredulous, but he went with them to adventure.

Bullgrit

Was there a big tough dude wearing a thong and a helmet that kept killing any PC who tried to leave the village?

LIVE TO WIN!!!!!

 

[Bullgrit]

Was there a big tough dude wearing a thong and a helmet that kept killing any PC who tried to leave the village?

LIVE TO WIN!!!!!

I have no idea what this is a reference to or how it relates to what I posted.

Bullgrit

 

[ExploderWizard]

I have no idea what this is a reference to or how it relates to what I posted.

Bullgrit

See the Southpark episode titled: Make Love Not Warcraft

The boys toons in WOW are griefed repeatedly by another player any time they attempt to go quest so they stay in the woods close to town and hunt boars to gain XP.

 

[Bullgrit]

See the Southpark episode titled: Make Love Not Warcraft

Seen it. I'm still not getting the connection, but I'll try tilting my head, turning the lights down a bit, and squinting some more.

I admit, my adventure hook was nothing as awesome as taking on a mission to save the World! (of warcraft)

Bullgrit

 

[pawsplay]

In the situation described in the OP, where stuff is missing from a University full of sages, I'd think it would be obvious that a player might want to ask them some questions. They're in the business of knowing stuff so I think it is obvious that somebody might inquire as to what they know about a situation important to them. My question to the NPC would not be, "Have you used your sagely powers to discover all the answers and therefore not need our party for this adventure?" My question would be, "Have you used your sagely powers to discover any information that might be helpful to us as we pursue your goal of recovering what was stolen?"

Yeah, if NPCs are not willing to provide some basic level of support, I would view that as a gamebreaking.

"Please, you must save my daughter, the crown princess, or all is lost!"
"Can we have a horse, a couple of healing potions, and some food?"
"No."

 

[howandwhy99]

How do you deal with players trying to obtain resources from NPCs that they shouldn't really have at their level?

I don't limit the intentions of the PCs. If they want to seek the Rod of Seven Parts at minute one of the campaign, I say "go for it". If they can find a piece, then they must have managed a way through all of the levels of challenges that lead up to a treasure of its level. Good for them. However, if they're still 1st level and go hang out in 1st level territory with a known powerful treasure (and who's going to hide such a thing and never play around with it?), guess who's going to be a target for every thief and enemy in or near that village?

So the question from the players is: This is a major university full of sages - someone must be able to cast some kind of scrying ritual.

Sages are very badly designed in AD&D. I don't know how they are designed in 4E, but if they have high level M-U spells or Cleric abilities, perhaps as rituals, these dudes are high level monsters. They may hire men-at-arms (the PCs) for menials tasks, but they are going to use whatever means are in their power to achieve their ends according to their intelligence. Using their scrying ability is a no brainer. They should already know the whereabouts of the stolen goods and missing person. They should have already had some defenses up in case of such of an attack. In fact, the enemy who committed the crime is probably suitable to the level of the Sages - and therefore not to the level of the PCs. But perhaps the enemy isn't higher level? Perhaps they were lucky and the sages simply need some muscle to retrieve these two outside of civilization? (otherwise they'd just go to the local ruler) The point is, they should already have all of the information resources within their grasp to selectively give to the PCs in return for their services, plus whatever "quest complete" treasure the party barters for as well.

It's absolutely logical for the players (and by proxy the PCs) to want to exploit every possible resource, but obviously there's a need to maintain some balance when the market price of the desired ritual is higher than the PCs' combined wealth.

How do you deal with this kind of thing? "The sages are busy with more pressing matters"? (Even though one of their own was just kidnapped?)

If any PC or group of PCs can pay the price, whether through haggling, coin, goods, or services, then they get what they are paying for. I mean, if they're dealing with an honest seller.

High level characters/monsters are always busy with other matters, but that doesn't mean the retrieval of their ally and goods isn't a goal for them. In the situation you are describing I see it as similar to high level PCs sending out hirelings to steal a few things from an enemy. If the PCs did this, then hopefully they have a clue as to how powerful this enemy is and the forces needed to overcome/slip by them. They would also instruct the hirelings on where they were going, what they were to do, the dangers involved, etc. Sages are bound to know a lot, if not really being capable of doing a lot. I'd ask the question, "what happened to their regular bootlickers that they have to send us?"

How flexible are you with player requests like this? If the PCs are defending a town from goblin raiders, do you let them ask the town guard for a dozen soldiers to accompany them?

Flexibility depends upon the NPC and other factors. If the players are reputable to the town leaders, then it's not really the soldiers who are accompanying them. Rather the other way around from their point of view. If goblins coming to raid the town are found, then the guards will fight for their town, the PCs are aiding. Or, if a single recon NPC was sent along and not a dozen guards, then he or she retreats to deliver the message. If the PCs lead any guard(s) outside of the town's zone of control, then they are going to be told, "that's monster country" and head back. Of course there are goblins out there, that's where goblins live.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Yeah, if NPCs are not willing to provide some basic level of support, I would view that as a gamebreaking.

"Please, you must save my daughter, the crown princess, or all is lost!"
"Can we have a horse, a couple of healing potions, and some food?"
"No."

If they had a horse, some potions, and food, they wouldn't need their daughter back!

Reward:

Whomsoever Slayeth all Ye Goblins Shall be Justly Rewarded with the Hande in Marriage of My [-]Daughter[/-] Horse.

Bonus: I'll throw in some potions and food.

So Sayeth I, Ruprecht the First, King of Scoundrelia​

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