Economic game changers: Replicators

[Krensky]

I'm thinking either a power cord to the sun and/or we use geothermal from Io to charge up some batteries...

As I recall, though, there was some discussion- RW and, from that, in Sci-Fi- about power generation (in space) by having an extremely long cable trailing another body. Ring any bells?

It's been a while, but I seem to remember there was a chapter on that in Robert L. Forward's Indistinguishable From Magic.

Which is a great book for all sorts of sci-fi tech in world building. It's made of a non-fiction essay on a topic, followed by a short piece of fiction dealing with it.

 

[Janx]

Interesting topic.

The OP seems to assume that Transporters and Replicators (which are really the same thing, just applied differently) have a zero expense. Or at least, to have any dramatic impact, that which powers them must be so trivial so that they are economical to build and distribute widely.

That might mean devices in every house, block, or town. But the assumption is, wide enough that everybody can get practical use out of it.


Obviously disease spreading by Transporter is a concern. Just like airplane are today with things like bird flu.

And transports helping you get to work in another country, also means cheaper labor in India can be porting here to do your job directly. It goes both ways.

I find the premise that if people didn't need stuff (because food and items are free), we would work on a Reputation economy to be not quite precise. Great chef's might have some pull to those who want an original custom meal. But the majority of us are happy eating the exact same McBurger we ate last week. So having a better McBurger that is replicated satisfies that problem and reduces the great chef's value.

People are people. And somebody is always looking to screw somebody else to get ahead, or just for fun. Sex is still going to be a tool and a weapon, because you can't Replicate that. Secrets are still a weapon, because you don't want everybody know that you tried to have sex with the Replicator. The people who hold the reins on sex and secrets are still going to get ahead.

And you can bet, somebody's going to want to control the mass of individuals. it may even server their interests that you stay home, addicted to your Replicator, and login regularly to vote and approve on their legislation to protect your right to Replicate with a rider on it to increase the power of the Senator who wrote the bill who also has stock in the Replicators Inc company.

Just because you have every material thing you want, is no reason to assume the game of life is won. Somebody is playing for higher stakes, and is quite happy that you like your material things so he can manipulate your supply.

Ignoring terrorists, there are sociopaths and jerks who will pee in your cheerios, just because they can. the New Economy will still be Us vs. Them.

 

[Umbran]

As I recall, though, there was some discussion- RW and, from that, in Sci-Fi- about power generation (in space) by having an extremely long cable trailing another body. Ring any bells?

Yes. It is called an "Electrodynamic tether". You have a long, conducting cable up in orbit, moving through the Earth's magnetic field - it's just a large scale version of taking a coil of wire and spinning it in the field of a large permanent magnet. The result is electric current.

Which is all well and good, except hat you need a metric buttload of the cable, and you need a way to get the power down to where it is used.

Oh, and again, you're not getting power from nowhere - doing this changes the orbit of the cable. With such a system, you have to do regular orbit corrections on your generators, which isn't cheap.

What I find the more interesting application of this idea runs the other way - use electric current running through the cable to adjust the orbit of a satellite, rather than using rockets.

 

[Umbran]

The OP seems to assume that Transporters and Replicators (which are really the same thing, just applied differently)

Well, Star Trek transporters and replicators are the same thing, applied differently.

There are other ways you might be able to get site to site transport that don't allow for replication - quantum mechanical tunnelling between points, and outright space warping would allow for teleportation without replication of arbitrary matter patterns. And you can do replication Trek-style without overcoming some of the issues of transporters.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yes. It is called an "Electrodynamic tether". You have a long, conducting cable up in orbit, moving through the Earth's magnetic field - it's just a large scale version of taking a coil of wire and spinning it in the field of a large permanent magnet. The result is electric current.

Which is all well and good, except hat you need a metric buttload of the cable, and you need a way to get the power down to where it is used.

Oh, and again, you're not getting power from nowhere - doing this changes the orbit of the cable. With such a system, you have to do regular orbit corrections on your generators, which isn't cheap.

What I find the more interesting application of this idea runs the other way - use electric current running through the cable to adjust the orbit of a satellite, rather than using rockets.

Thanks- I just could NOT come up with the name!

As I recall, both Ben Bova and Kim Stanley Robinson use those in their Grand Tour and Mars novel series, respectively, and covered the benefits and downsides. Stephen Baxter may have also used one in one of his more recent novels.

So yeah, I know its not something for nothing, but it IS an as-yet untapped power supply. As I recall, one of the aforementioned novelists had an orbital settlement- founded in the vast, abandoned emptied water storage container of a previous space initiative- use such a tether as one of it's main power sources.

Another may have used it as a power source for his space elevator...

 

[jefgorbach]

Another thing to consider is StarTrek/etc depicts the "daily" life aboard Federation military installations with little (if any?) depiction of life outside those constraints. IOW while monetary transactions are not shown outside of the STNG's poker game and Quark's casino, the implication is financial transaction DO exist -- so while Transporters/warp drive greatly expand an individual's ability to travel and Replicators eliminate the need to STORE unused belongings physically, there very likely remains a cost-of-use factor unshown in the various series. Recall the ship's computer can locate individuals onboard, presumably via their comm-badge ... ergo its reasonable to conclude salaries are automatically adjusted for transporter/replicator usage; explaining why everyone is shown using the elevator/walking instead of using the ship's point-to-point transporter.

 

[jonesy]

ergo its reasonable to conclude salaries are automatically adjusted for transporter/replicator usage; explaining why everyone is shown using the elevator/walking instead of using the ship's point-to-point transporter.

Transporter credit - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki

 

[Kaodi]

Personally, I would prefer replicators to transporters. For one, I bet you it would be quicker and easier to send a replicator payload somewhere in the solar system by rocket and have it do its thing than it would be to have to buid everything by hand or machine and transport it there. I mean, would you rather take two years to travel to Mars and then have everything ready for you when you get there, or transport to Mars and then have to toil there exactly the way you do here?

More importantly though, I think replicators are just philosophically less complicated. No need to worry if the person who went in is the same person, really, that came out.

 

[fireinthedust]

Personally, I would prefer replicators to transporters. For one, I bet you it would be quicker and easier to send a replicator payload somewhere in the solar system by rocket and have it do its thing than it would be to have to buid everything by hand or machine and transport it there. I mean, would you rather take two years to travel to Mars and then have everything ready for you when you get there, or transport to Mars and then have to toil there exactly the way you do here?

...you haven't seen the show "the Colony", have you? There are tons of people who would love to do just that. Granted, there's a minimum of stuff you'd want to have with you to get the job done, no inventing the wheel out of stone. Still, pioneering on Mars? Ignoring radiation issues or diseases from terra-forming, that would be an adventure in itself. "fireinthedustingrad" and "fireinthedust-ington DC" have a lovely ring to them.

I am assuming a star trek-style world. Picard discusses in the early series with those 20th century frozen people how we gave up on running the world via money.

Granted, that's Earth. I have yet to come across a discussion of how they made all that stuff work, and cover the human need for power. Not all races have transporters, or can use them.

I was thinking of Services as the foundation of a new economy, with expertise being a power source. The issue with this is that, aside from refusing service, or keeping trade secrets a la stonemasons, in a Replicator economy there is the same issue of creating need.

I'm arguing that with human nature comes a willingness to subsist at some minimum level. Without expending wasted effort, what is the most I *have* to do to get, not my objective, but just enough that I'm willing to settle for it. Some people will want new experiences, or to flee from boredom. They'll want unique services and experiences. The rest of us will be fine living day to day on what we've decided to settle for: replicated hamburgers and chocolate... or high-protein no-fat Ice cream!

The issue with a Service economy is this, as I see it: what do you pay experts with? They have replicators. what could they possibly need, other than sex and secrets, that they can't replicate? Other services?

Instrumental value vanishes. Every action is now motivated purely by the intrinsic value of the action itself: I write a book because I want to write it. I achieve things because they are worth achieving. I have kids because I want kids, and there's no reason not to when I can provide for them however they need me to.

Yes, I suppose the cost of the technology is an issue. If it's free, as it seems to be in Star Trek, that's fine. Keep in mind there's an episode (forgot the title) in STNG where they find a destroyed planet with a small patch of green on its surface and two humans living there in their house. Picard gives them a replicator unit; I don't remember if it had a plug cord or not. If we're going Trek, and that gift is reasonable, then the replicator can be assumed to be powered in a way that it could be run potentially forever by two old people on a planet with no other resources than their house.

 

[jonesy]

Seems to me that Star Trek does have a currency. Energy. The more valued the society deems you, the more energy society lets you use. The question becomes, who gets to decide what your value to the society is and how does one compare the value of a dedicated writer to the value of a simple starship ensign?