Dealing with logical but gamebreaking requests

[Starfox]

Reading some of the replies, and remembering back to an adventure I was playing a PC in, an idea just came to me. [...] The DM explained the plot to me a while after the adventure/campaign failed to take hold. The lord was bowing to pressure from the local guilds to "do something" about the bandits on the road. But the lord was actually in league with the bandits, and so didn't want to really send a team who could actually wipe them out. So he picked our team. Picking the obvious novices would have tipped his hand that he wasn't really trying to kill the bandits.

This is cool as a one-off change of pace. But a game that is constantly this paranoid is rarely enjoyable - see the "My DM'ing has gotten worse over the years, not better" thread.

And yes... Beware official Shadowrun adventures...

 

[S'mon]

This is adversarial gamemastering in the simulationist tradition. You're seeing yourself as a referee arbiting the PCs efforts, not as an entertainer or storyteller nor as a gamist game-master providing in-game tactical challenges.

Not that I mind, I just thought I'd point it out. It seems you think this is the "only" or "natural" way to resolve such "player foolishness". IMO, it is actually a pretty extreme style of gamemastering.

He did provide a tactical challenge, which the players failed by not scouting/info-gathering. IME the best gamist challenges for players come from exactly this kind of objective world-simulationist DMing. Completely contra Edwards, simulation provides the bedrock foundation for challenging Gamist gameplay.

 

[Bullgrit]

Beware official Shadowrun adventures...

The run's not over til Mr. Johnson screws you.

Bullgrit

 

[I'm A Banana]

But you can't very well let a level 3 party get level 10 rituals done for them for free.

I'll echo a few others: Why not? My first instinct would be to go with it. They do the ritual. The party knows where the MacGuffin is. The adventure is in going to get them.

Alternately: Why do scholars have to be powerful ritualists? This is D&D 4e. Nothing has a level unless it's a threat to the PC's. They're scholars and sages, not adventurers or heroes. Unless you've attributed some great magic to their working already, they can just be non-statted nothings, and thus not be able to use any kind of ritual ever for any sort of reason.

 

[steeldragons]

I'll echo a few others: Why not? My first instinct would be to go with it. They do the ritual. The party knows where the MacGuffin is. The adventure is in going to get them.

Alternately: Why do scholars have to be powerful ritualists? This is D&D 4e. Nothing has a level unless it's a threat to the PC's. They're scholars and sages, not adventurers or heroes. Unless you've attributed some great magic to their working already, they can just be non-statted nothings, and thus not be able to use any kind of ritual ever for any sort of reason.

The second is a valid point that I am/was not qualified to make. I, myself, have very limited experience with 4e.

I suppose it goes to the game in question. Namely: How prevalent is "magic" in your world? AND How rigidly do you ascribe to the RAW?

That's something only you, as the DM, can answer...and adjust in whatever ways you allow yourself and think are FAIR to the PCs!

To my experience in play (not just as a DM of my own, but also playing in others' games), maybe it's a decidedly pre-4e conception, imho, that a "university of sages" would NOT have some magic available to them.

And from a "popular culture" perspective, as a player, I would be envisioning something akin to the Harry Potter world/Hogwarts school. So some basic divination/scrying wouldn't seem or feel "out of place" or unreasonable to me.

I'm still reeling, I think, from the idea of "scrying" being a 24th level ritual! lol. I know, I know, levels in 4e are very different from what I am accustomed to/experienced with. "Rituals" in general are something I do not have a firm grasp of (versus "spell" use, I mean). "Locate Object" was a 3rd level clerical spell, iirc. "Is there a 5th level cleric in the house?!" lol. How about a 5th level mage/MU/wizard with "Clairvoyance"?

But again, that's just me. In 4e terms, sounds like you are completely justified in saying "no they can't do that."

However, to reference my previous post, "No you can't" doesn't have to be the tack. Some "in game, in story" reason should be offered to describe the 'why' they can't and maintain story/game/play immersion.

When my (and I don't think I'm alone in this) "suspension of disbelief" is disrupted it is damn difficult to get back into it. It lends itself to the thinking (not saying it would happen in future situations, but the thought is there) "Well, we can't ask for help...cuz it'll just be a..." or worse (imo), "...Rulez sez 'No'."

Again, good luck, have fun and happy gaming.
--Steel Dragons

 

[I'm A Banana]

When my (and I don't think I'm alone in this) "suspension of disbelief" is disrupted it is damn difficult to get back into it. It lends itself to the thinking (not saying it would happen in future situations, but the thought is there) "Well, we can't ask for help...cuz it'll just be a..." or worse (imo), "...Rulez sez 'No'."

Generally, I agree, but in this case, the logic goes like this:

No one gets to cast magic as a default. In order to do that, you need to be exceptional, heroic, and amazing. That's what it takes to master the bizarre rites of any sort of magic. Most people can't do it.

If you're a PC, you're exceptional, heroic, and amazing, right out of the gate. You have what it takes to master the bizarre rites of magic. You can do it.

Your enemies and threats are likewise, exceptional, villainous, and amazing. They have what it takes to master the bizarre rites of magic. They can do it.

If you're some dude who has spent his life cooped up in a tower, you're probably not very exceptional or amazing. You probably do not have what it takes to master the bizarre rites of magic. You can't do it. You're just some scholar. Scholarship is not enough to learn magic. You must be heroic.

That's the logic, anyway.

I personally find it a lot more satisfying and cool to assume everyone is capable of doing something amazing, even NPCs, so I'd go with the first answer: They use the ritual, you know where he is, now go get him.

But I guess if the sages can perform 24th level rituals, and they're high enough level to do it, the question of "Why the heck do you need our help?" comes up.

To which my ideal response is: "Dammit, Jim, I'm a ritualist, not an adventurer!"

 

[IronWolf]

This leads me to mention one of my favorite GM resources, too often underutilized, which can help you out of these jams: The bathroom.

When in doubt, go to the bathroom. If you drink as much soda as I do during a game session then you probably need to go to the bathroom anyway. When the players put you on the spot, go to the bathroom where those expectant faces aren't staring at you, making creative thought all but impossible. Come up with the best answer you can in a minute and then go back to the game table and run with it.

Excellent suggestion. I was thrown off a bit at the last session I GM'ed when a path was chosen that I was not entirely suspecting. It was close to game session ending time, but not quite - being thrown I went ahead and called it a little early.

By the time I hit the first turn on the way back home I had a flood of ideas on how to handle what had happened. Had I just claimed bathroom break, I likely could have had the same flood of ideas and got the other 30 minutes or so of gaming in.

 

[Jerrbear616]

My thoughts are, if the villains abducted someone from a sage university, that they knew had access to scrying .... wouldn't they have a counter-device for that sort of thing?

 

[Eric Tolle]

I'm still reeling, I think, from the idea of "scrying" being a 24th level ritual! lol. I know, I know, levels in 4e are very different from what I am accustomed to/experienced with. "Rituals" in general are something I do not have a firm grasp of (versus "spell" use, I mean). "Locate Object" was a 3rd level clerical spell, iirc. "Is there a 5th level cleric in the house?!" lol. How about a 5th level mage/MU/wizard with "Clairvoyance"?

in 3.X Locate Object or Person would be FINE...if the kidnappers decided to hide out 800 feet or less away. Likewise Clairvoyance would be excellent...IF the location of the item was known. Y'know, these aren't exactly the best criticisms, here.

FWIW, in 4E there's a variety of divination rituals, from level 4 on up. The lower level ones though are either fairly short range (i.e.: Locate X), or give hints as to the action to take. Full on Scrying with no range limit and only a description needed is high level though, and "Scry and Die" tactics are very difficult to pull off. It's worth noting also that "Forbiddance" blocks scrying, is only 20th level, and can be made permanent without the use of a separate spell. Hell, you could have old ruins that still have Forbiddance running.

(Have I mentioned how much I seriously hate hate HATE the "Scry and Die" tactic? Oh yeah, hate it with the power of a thousand suns)

However, to reference my previous post, "No you can't" doesn't have to be the tack. Some "in game, in story" reason should be offered to describe the 'why' they can't and maintain story/game/play immersion.

I've had similar situations rise up in my games. to paraphrase my solution to apply to this scenario: "Uh, yeah, we DO in fact have a sage who's capable of casting that ritual. He's ah, he's been kidnapped."

Which leads to the question of why the baddies wanted to kidnap a sage who could cast a high-level ritual. And more fun.

 

[Celebrim]

How do you deal with players trying to obtain resources from NPCs that they shouldn't really have at their level?

First, by not making too many assumptions about what resources PC's should or shouldn't have at a given level.

The PCs were working with a group of scholars and researchers at a university library in a major city (this is in D&D 4e). One of the researchers and an important document were abducted by villains. This is kind of a big deal to the university people, who are hiring the PCs to help them out.

Why? This is a very serious question. If they are hiring the PCs to help them out it suggests the PCs have some resources that the sages don't have and absolutely need. If the PC's have much fewer resources than the sages, why are the sages bothering with the PC's? What steps have the sages already taken given the resources that they have, and what about the PC's suggests to the sages that these are the people who have the resources they lack.

If you have already answered these questions, you generally no longer are worried about what resources the PC's may or may not have.

So the question from the players is: This is a major university full of sages - someone must be able to cast some kind of scrying ritual. It's logical enough - the sages want their researcher back more than the PCs do. But you can't very well let a level 3 party get level 10 rituals done for them for free.

Why not? The sages probably did the scrying ritual before the PC's even showed up. Are you saying the sages are too stupid to realize that they had the tools that they needed to solve the problem even before the PC's were hired? Why are NPC's stupid?

The game is supposed to be about the exploits of the PCs, not the NPCs they ally with...

This is one of the reasons I rarely have NPC's with considerable resources in my game. If the NPCs have considerable resources, it's utterly illogical that the game is about the PC's and this WILL come out in the course of play.

but I don't like the NPCs coming off as chumps either, so it's hard to come up with a compelling reason that the sages can't or won't offer this kind of help.

So don't. Build it into your plans ahead of time. Don't plan out what the PC's will do like you are a conductor on a railroad. Plan out what the NPC's will do based on their resources and circumstances and figure out how the PC's fit into this situation given the resources that they have. As PC resources increase, they'll end up naturally taking a bigger and bigger role in society. You won't have to work at it.

How flexible are you with player requests like this? If the PCs are defending a town from goblin raiders, do you let them ask the town guard for a dozen soldiers to accompany them?

Sure. In fact, if the PC's are defending a town from goblin raiders, I probably predicate winning the scenario on the PC's utilizing as much of the resources of the town as is practical. Or the PC's might not be tasked with the whole job of defeating the goblin raiders, just defeating the raiders in one small section of the town where failure is marked by narrative suffering of the NPC's they failed to save and success by being hailed as heroes.

Often I treat the PC's as the wild card in a scenario. The villains have carefully planned their plot to overcome the resources of of the local good guys, and so have taken steps to defend themselves against the sort of obvious things the good guys might try. But they are relatively unprepared for the arrival of the heroes who have resources they didn't account and who take steps they didn't expect.