5E on the horizon?

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But the reaction to 3.5 at launch (even if we almost all ended up playing it eventually) strongly suggests gamers are not willing to embrace a new edition of the game after only 3 years.

In defense of WotC, I don't they expected everyone to treat 3.5e as a new edition of D&D. To me, it always felt like they thought they were releasing a new edition of Magic: the Gathering, the way they do every couple of years. I.e. Some cleanup, maybe new art, but it doesn't obsolete older material, and they don't expect everyone to buy it.

Personally, I think WotC was caught by surprise by the community reaction that 3.5e obsoleted 3.0e.
 

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In defense of WotC, I don't they expected everyone to treat 3.5e as a new edition of D&D. To me, it always felt like they thought they were releasing a new edition of Magic: the Gathering, the way they do every couple of years. I.e. Some cleanup, maybe new art, but it doesn't obsolete older material, and they don't expect everyone to buy it.

Personally, I think WotC was caught by surprise by the community reaction that 3.5e obsoleted 3.0e.

Can you blame them? The reaction was...ridiculous.
 

3.5E was a rather annoying update; everything changed just a little bit, enough to be forever blindsiding you when you thought you knew how something worked and then somebody happened to look it up in the book and, surprise! It's different now. And when you have Monte Cook announcing point-blank that it was planned from the start, I can see why folks would get upset.

Then again, did it lead to people ceasing to buy books? Or did most people eventually convert? If the latter, it did what it was supposed to do. Corporations are in business to make money, not friends.
 

Who is taking "potshots"? I'm not making any qualitative judgements about 4E as a game - I like it, play it, and prefer to other editions of D&D, including Pathfinder. But I think it is almost a self-evident truth that 4E is not as successful as WotC would have liked it to be, both economically speaking but also in terms of the community, which is fractured in a way that it has never been.

Really? Where are they?

How many people are currently in the RPGA compared to say, 2005? That would be an excellent indicator of the "fracture" and "not as successful" as it could have been.

Considering that as I look on the front page of En World, a site that has grown by about 30% since the release of 4e, I see that the 4e boards are about 10 times the size of the Pathfinder boards. On a site where you'd think that the "fracture" would be very visible, you'd think that there'd be a bit more chatter on the Pathfinder boards.

All of the "evidence" of the fracture pretty much only exists in the minds of those that want there to be this massive split. I have no idea why people insist there is this massive split when there is almost no evidence to support it. I blame Lanefan.* :D

* Someone has to take the blame. :p
 
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To me the question is if Hasbro thinks the investment in a 5E is worth the expected returns. They did a big investment with 4E. It did not come up to what, by Hasbro standards, probably were pretty low expectations. Why would a new edition fare much better? 5e (and role-playing games in general) is not a very safe investment from Hasbro's horizon.

if there is indeed a 5E, I'd say that is a pretty significant victory for WotC.
 

No. I think WotC involvement in D&D was the biggest curse for the game. They are responsible for the 2 worst editions D&D has seen in its history.

They mistreat the legacy because they dont care about. For them its only about making money fast and without much effort.

Look at the wonderfully made products of other game major companies (like FFG or Paizo) and compare them to the bland products of the "industry leader" and then you will see the what "care" really means.

Hum. Paizo certainly didn't "Care" enough about the legacy of D&D to fix the crippling flaws in 3.X. They didn't even bother to do something simple and critically important like fix the saving throw ratios, much less repair the crippling of the warrior types and the overpowering of spellcasters. They did nothing to fix the fact that half the classes in the game become useless before 10th level. And of course they couldn't do anything about the overcomplicated, optimization-based building of characters that resembles nothing so much as making a Magic deck. Oh, but they had nice art, and they formatted their products SO well (meanwhile, we are happy to report that even though there was a little trouble with an iceberg, we've revarnished the decks of the Titanic!). If that's caring, I'd prefer if they cared a little less, in favor of fixing the broken aspects of 3.X.

I suppose if you consider dropping in a few minor house rules and putting nice artwork in to be caring, I suppose Paizo cared. Personally though, if one considers WOTC to be moneygrubbing for putting a lot of work in a product, what does it say about people who simply grabbed an open source product, made a few minor changes, and charged money for it?

That's right.

I've said this before, and I always get disagreement from all angles......
But I'm still right..... :)

The portion of society that will ever be table top role players is more or less fixed. Most people will NEVER do it. At least not as money spending on-going parts of the market. Even most people who play WOW will never be table top gamers. And people who play WOW is still a clear, distant overall minority.

Well yeah. the glory days are long past. However, that's no excuse for catering to grognards at the excuse of drawing new players in. And that's definitely no excuse for creating systems that actively repel new gamers, like 3.X and derivatives.

It says a lot that I personally introduced several people to both 3.X and 4E. In each case they bounced hard against the deliberate "gotchas!" of 3.X, and at the same time found 4E very easy and fun to master. In short, 3.X is the sort of game that appeals to people who like to build killer Magic decks, while 4E appeals more to the people who would pick up and play "Settlers of Cataan".

Growing the fan base is possible. But you have to be realistic about your prospective market. I think WotC's reach on this one greatly exceeded their grasp.

Possibly, though as I've said, I've had a lot of success introducing people to 4E that hated 3.X. If WOTC's reach exceeded their grasp with 4E, it's still worth looking at how we can bring in a general gaming population, instead of catering to particular system fanatics.

I still say that 3E was a vastly bigger tent. And the success of 3E and the "golden age" as described by people in the market are evidence of it. A lot of people who love 4E were quite happy with 3E. But, that was before 4E came in focused like a laser on their personal sweet spot. That genie is not going back in the bottle. There is a segment of gamers who will never go back to a game that I will go to. And I don't say that as a critical comment toward either side.

I think you misspelled "AD&D" as "3E" there. I was around for the REAL golden age, and it had no numbers in the title. And IIRC, the figures bear this out- the number of gamers for 3.X never came anywhere close to the level of AD&D at it's height.

And one major advantage of AD&D was that it was easy to teach, and every class could be fun from the beginning through the end. It didn't have nonsense like "rewarding system mastery", or the realization that "Hey, this character you've played through 8th level? he's completely useless. Back in those days, we didn't have "optimization", we had "munchkins", and it was a curse, but a badge of pride that you figured out how to win the game. That to me is one of the big reasons it was so successful.

Of course this is based on vague recollections of half-remembered survey and sales quotes, combined with fond memories of when every school had it's D&D club, and weekend D&D clubs were within bicycling distance. Actual numbers would be appreciated.
 
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Considering that as I look on the front page of En World, a site that has grown by about 30% since the release of 4e, I see that the 4e boards are about 10 times the size of the Pathfinder boards. On a site where you'd think that the "fracture" would be very visible, you'd think that there'd be a bit more chatter on the Pathfinder boards.

but 4e board is only 1/3 - 1/4 the size of legacy forum. And one might expect much more Paizo discussion to be taking place on forums more dedicated to it. In other words, can't draw too much from that, I think.

Clearly 4e hasn't had the same effect that 3e had, in that 3e brought loads of people back to D&D, and there wasn't nearly as many people arguing that it was less D&D than 2nd edition. Could this have been because of the relative maturity of the internet at that point, or for other reasons? Difficult to know.

But the release of 3e was a rallying point, the release of 4e has been more divisive. From a moderation point of view this has been (painfully!) obvious.

Cheers
 

but 4e board is only 1/3 - 1/4 the size of legacy forum. And one might expect much more Paizo discussion to be taking place on forums more dedicated to it. In other words, can't draw too much from that, I think.

Clearly 4e hasn't had the same effect that 3e had, in that 3e brought loads of people back to D&D, and there wasn't nearly as many people arguing that it was less D&D than 2nd edition. Could this have been because of the relative maturity of the internet at that point, or for other reasons? Difficult to know.

But the release of 3e was a rallying point, the release of 4e has been more divisive. From a moderation point of view this has been (painfully!) obvious.

Cheers

Depends on whether you go by posts or threads. If you go by posts, the 4e forum is 1/2 the size of the Legacy forum, despite being what, six years younger? And those six years were purportedly the "Golden Age" of 3e gaming.

Again, we have to look at this over time. At this point its somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 the size. Give it a couple more years and lets have this conversation again. If it's caught up, then wouldn't it make sense that 4e isn't really a whole lot less popular than 3e was?

Eric Tolle said:
I think you misspelled "AD&D" as "3E" there. I was around for the REAL golden age, and it had no numbers in the title. And IIRC, the figures bear this out- the number of gamers for 3.X never came anywhere close to the level of AD&D at it's height.

See, the problem here is, if current numbers are voodoo accounting and poking wobbly bits in the chicken entrails, the TSR numbers are even less accurate. We have no idea what the numbers really were during the TSR days and, frankly, even TSR had no idea what the numbers actually were.

I'm really not sure why people would think that gaming had it's golden day back in about 1982 and has never achieved that kind of player base again. It's possible of course. But, it's equally possible that the gaming population, other than spiking here and there, has grown fairly moderately over time.
 

Can you blame them? The reaction was...ridiculous.

I have to say 3.5 being released just afew years out was irritating to me as a consumer. I didn't get involved in the online flame wars but suddenly you felt pressured to repurchase every book you already owned because 3.5 was just different enough to creat problems when people used different books. Don't get me wrong it is their company and they can release what they want-i don't feel like i have special ownership of the game as a player. But 3.5 was just a headache and i really didn't feel the changes warranted new books.
 

Well yeah. the glory days are long past. However, that's no excuse for catering to grognards at the excuse of drawing new players in. And that's definitely no excuse for creating systems that actively repel new gamers, like 3.X and derivatives.
Certainly, and I didn't suggest they should cater to "gronards".

But not recognizing the difference between prospective new players and going for the public at large was a big mistake.

It says a lot that I personally introduced several people to both 3.X and 4E. In each case they bounced hard against the deliberate "gotchas!" of 3.X, and at the same time found 4E very easy and fun to master. In short, 3.X is the sort of game that appeals to people who like to build killer Magic decks, while 4E appeals more to the people who would pick up and play "Settlers of Cataan".
I'm sorry your friends found 3E to be beyond their limitations and I'm glad 4E solved that for you.

Possibly, though as I've said, I've had a lot of success introducing people to 4E that hated 3.X. If WOTC's reach exceeded their grasp with 4E, it's still worth looking at how we can bring in a general gaming population, instead of catering to particular system fanatics.
Fanatics? You clearly don't get the point I'm making. First, it has nothing to do with edition. A fully new edition that was designed with the correct market in mind COULD have done a lot better. Moving on from 3E was a good idea and particular system doesn't even have anything to do with it. And fanatics is even further removed. Though I guess you do seem to have the grasp of that concept.


I think you misspelled "AD&D" as "3E" there. I was around for the REAL golden age, and it had no numbers in the title. And IIRC, the figures bear this out- the number of gamers for 3.X never came anywhere close to the level of AD&D at it's height.
No. I played AD&D. AD&D was cool for its time. And it also had virtually no competition. And 3E has been referenced as a second golden age, so I meant exactly what I said. AD&D was as well, but the market was so different then, it doesn't compare.

I loved AD&D and I think it was brilliant. But it was also a trailbreaker and learned a ton of lessons the hard way. Everything after has stood upon its shoulders and has it to thank.

But that doesn't change the fact that later games DID learn from it and, in the end, AD&D was on a downward path because as competition did grow a lot of people went to other games and little more than brand was carrying D&D. 3E saved the name and actually pulled the community together to a very large extent.

And one major advantage of AD&D was that it was easy to teach, and every class could be fun from the beginning through the end. It didn't have nonsense like "rewarding system mastery", or the realization that "Hey, this character you've played through 8th level? he's completely useless. Back in those days, we didn't have "optimization", we had "munchkins", and it was a curse, but a badge of pride that you figured out how to win the game. That to me is one of the big reasons it was so successful.
You keep talking about easy and hard.

I don't know of a version of D&D that I have ever found anywhere near "hard". I find nothing but downsides in changing the game to cater to people who do.

I've also found that I don't enjoy nearly as much when I play with people who think of RPGs in terms of "figuring out how to win".

So, bottom line, you and I are are not looking for the same thing remotely. You have what you want and I have what I want. They may both entail sitting around a table pretending to be an elf, but when all is said and done they are as different as baseball and monopoly.
I think these conversations would go better if everyone realized just how distinct the experiences can be.
 

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