Where do you see (or want) 5.0 to go?

[Greg K]

5th edition needs to be simple. Ditch the powers, ditch the grid. System mastery? The character-building mini-game? There's no reason at all to put any of that stuff in the core rules of the game. Sell a simple "essence of D&D" as core, and put the complex tactical combat, the piles of powers for character building, and all that other nonsense in hardcover supplements. That way,

1) WotC gets everybody's money for the core game. People who would normally abandon D&D in favor of Savage Worlds or a retro-clone would be inclined, I think, to play a reasonably "basic" flavored 5th edition.


(1) Core Rules. Everything you need to play a Heroic Tier game. Character generation (not creation, generation), the basic four classes, the basic four races, lists of spells and monsters and magic items, the basic Dungeon Mastering procedures.

Obviously, I can't speak for everyone, but you just lost every D&D player and Savage World gamer I, personally, know.
They don't want generation. They want creation which does not have to be complex as demonstrated by Savage Worlds, Cortex, Unisystem andmany other games

And 4 races, 4 classes is, definitely, not going to satisfy them. They will not find that enough choice for a D&D core book.

 

[Greg K]

by everything in my XP, I mean races and geography

 

[Jack Daniel]

Obviously, I can't speak for everyone, but you just lost every D&D player and Savage World gamer I, personally, know.
They don't want generation. They want creation which does not have to be complex as demonstrated by Savage Worlds, Cortex, Unisystem andmany other games

And 4 races, 4 classes is, definitely, not going to satisfy them. They will not find that enough choice for a D&D core book.

Did you even read what I just suggested? (Not trying to sound condescending here; I'm honestly asking whether you did.) I said: release three core books. Instead of a PHB, a DMG, and an MM, you release one book with the basics, one book with the complicated character stuff, and one book with the complicated combat stuff. Everybody who wants the complicated game need only buy three hardcover books... which everybody has been doing since 1980 anyway. One could think of my model as, oh, say, "Rules Cylcopedia + Player's Handbook + Combat & Tactics."

 

[Gizmoduck5000]

Obviously, I can't speak for everyone, but you just lost every D&D player and Savage World gamer I, personally, know.
They don't want generation. They want creation which does not have to be complex as demonstrated by Savage Worlds, Cortex, Unisystem andmany other games

And 4 races, 4 classes is, definitely, not going to satisfy them. They will not find that enough choice for a D&D core book.

That's what gamers want. But why should D&D care about catering to gamers? Sure, they have generated a lot of revenue for TSR/WoTC over the years...but they've also turned the hobby, which is meant to be a social one, into a toxic, uninviting cesspool.

Gamers aren't the target demographic of D&D...the mainstream is. To those on the outside, D&D is as synonymous with TTRPG's as Band-Aids are to adhesive bandage strips. D&D should be simple, light and userfriendly at it's core because it is the first and only RPG that many people will play, and that means that the special snowflake, number-wanking, aspie tax law aspects of the game need to be pushed to the wayside. GURPS is a game for gamers...D&D doesn't get to be THAT. D&D needs to be the game for everyone else.

I know that gamers just love their meticulously, obsessively crafted uber-builds...but just because WE want it, doesn't necessarily make it the best thing for the game. There are plenty of games that cater to our ideosyncracies already, but it creates an exclusionary atmosphere and a high bar for entry that proves adversarial for introducing new people. D&D needs to be the game with big, colorful pictures that a bunch of 10 year olds can buy and learn to play in a couple of hours. End of story.

The sad truth is that D&D can't compete against WoW at it's own game. It just can't. What future iterations of D&D need to do is focus their attention on what Roleplaying games do better than any other form of entertainment out there...immersion and imagination. That means that the game needs to be streamlined, accessible, and completely playable in one's head space...and THAT means that the grid, the character tweaking, and the ultra detailed combat rules need to go.

For this reason, I wholeheartedly endorse Jack Daniel's ideas. I also wholeheartedly endorse Jack Daniels on the rocks. Mixers are for pussies.

One caveat though. I agree with the classic four Races/Classes....EXCEPT I'd replace Hobbitts with Goblins or Kobolds. But that's just me.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Character generation (not creation, generation)

Hi Jack,

What is the distinction you are drawing here? I don't quite get it I'm afraid.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I wonder if you could solve some of the adventure day problem by simply reversing the way in which whatever passes for encounter and daily powers in the next edition work. Your limited powers are not what you gain back after resting. Rather, they are what you lose after resting. Call it groove, andrenaline, urgency, or whatever, but you need to build it up during the course of the day before you can pull out the big guns. Maybe it does not all disappear after a single rest, and maybe there are circumstance bonuses to it, but I think it could make things more interesting.

I like the sound of the concept you are aiming for - it might even give an interesting dilemma - rest to get hit points back, or continue in order to unlock your most powerful powers.

Sorting out the details in a workable way might be tricky (to say the least), but certainly worth thinking about.

 

[Gizmoduck5000]

I think 5e should be a mutant hybrid of AD&D, 4e, and THIS.

It would bring back resource management, varying class complexity, the absence of miniatures combat in the core rules, and 3.5 style multi-classing.

Kind of like 3.5, but with AD&D style fluff, simpler rules, and some of the best aspects of 4e.

3.5 style multi-classing doesn't work. It just doesn't. All it manages to do in most cases is create half a character. The other cases are really just system puzzles for rule savants to find. I'm not really convinced that there needs to be multi-classing of any kind at all...but if it's going to be there, it might s well be done right.

The goal of multi-classing systems is to create a character that sacrifices hyperfocus for versatility, but numerically remains on the same playing field as the mono-classers. Most attempts to do this have failed. 4E, with it's front-loaded character creation + 1/2 level had the most potential to do it right, but the games reliance on base abilities plus the awful feat multi-classing rules screwed the pooch on this one. Hybrid classing had potential, but if you don't have decent synergy between primary scores, then you can't really pull it off.

What the game needs in this regard, is an entirely new system that actually works.

 

[Gizmoduck5000]

Hi Jack,

What is the distinction you are drawing here? I don't quite get it I'm afraid.

Character creation is what you do in D&D 4e.

Character generation is what you do in Gamma World.

 

[Doug McCrae]

One could think of my model as, oh, say, "Rules Cylcopedia + Player's Handbook + Combat & Tactics."

Yeah, what you're suggesting is late 90s 2e AD&D. But, presumably, better done.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I would like to see some of the balance of 4e and the customizabity of 3e. One thing id like to see changed is the4e powers system. Really would like them to go back to the old spell and class system. The new system just wasn't my cup of tea.