Which fantasy TRPGs do you think truly reflect the characteristics of firearms as Game Changers?

Celebrim

Legend
AC simply is a horrid mechanic as implemented in the D&D/d20 lines...

Real world: Armor works by spreading the impact area so the force doesn't result in crossing the tissue damage thresholds (bruising, muscle disruption, bone fracture, bone cleaving.)

Yes, but AC models this by just by treating hits that don't cross the tissue damage thresholds as being another type of non-hit. In other words, we're modeling the end results and not the process. Yes, this is highly simplistic and abstract, but it doesn't necessarily result in something all that different than modelling the process except in edge cases. Process modelling doesn't necessarily result in more realistic end results, because the various steps of the process modelling will themselves have abstractions and simplifications and often the designer's sense of what is realistic is wrong resulting in really unrealistic outcomes.

GURPS is probably the definitive example of this. The ideas behind the process are informed by knowledge of reality, but the outcomes are not only not helpful to a game they don't even manage to be realistic.

Pheonix Command could obtain just about the same results by getting rid of all the tables and processes, and just use small amounts of hit points and weapons with large amounts of random damage with maybe one table for random non-lethal wound effects. All that process it engages in doesn't model even end up in reality, which is that death is caused by shock, blood loss, and infection.

Or consider even when you apply the process theory of "realism" to a game engine with a computer running it because the process is too complex to use by hand, such as in "Dwarf Fortress" where the system models layers of armor, skin, flesh and bone in an attempt to be "realistic". But the resulting combats are some of the least realistic and least interesting I've ever seen, to the point of being unintentional humor.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

dragoner

KosmicRPG.com
AC is just part of the paradigm of DnD combat, it is difficult to just pull threads without looking at the whole. I agree it is an abstraction, then again there are very real world considerations for the longbow, composite bow, and crossbow that the game doesn't account for, maybe some might want that level of detail, I would wager most don't though. Some of the changes are pretty obvious historically, such as plate armor over taking chainmail because of the invention of the trip hammer made making plate cheaper, and easier to manufacture than chainmail. Guns really come to the fore in the 30 years war with Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden's light horse drawn artillery, the pike was on its way out before, and that finished formations of pikemen. That was not as much the cannons, but the carriage, and organization of the units.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Ime firearms are almost always so heavily abstracted that any of their downsides get ignored or dramatically mitigated. It's not fantasy, but the only ttrpg I can think of that doesn't ignore/downplay the balance of meaningful weight size rate of fire amo capacity/weight and heat generator for high RoF is MechWarrior. MechWarrior has the added benefit of taking it a step further and showing both armor and the utter dominance of missiles in their niche
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
question:
Firearms are usually described as being able to ignore armor AC. so how can modern bulletproof armor plate be represented in rules?
Modos 2 does indeed say that an arquebus ignores physical protection (AC), but that's against genre-appropriate armors. Modern weapons must defeat modern armor in the same way that ancient weapons defeat ancient armor because of what has been posted upthread: AC and HP are abstract. Abstract rules are fun; simulationist rules are a PITA.

magic enhanced armor and gun are possible,but how to demonstrate their ability to block bullets and penetrate armor in terms of rules?
The same way that non-magical gear does it. Or you could easily just add some bonuses for rate-of-kill considerations: if a machine gun kills foes faster, just give the MG a damage bonus. Or an AC-avoiding secondary damage.

If you don't do this, then armor because more absolute protection than is intended and you run into GURPS like problems of eventually all combats are long and resolved by random critical hits.
I solved this with damage minimums and reasonable health amounts. Is GURPS one of the "I hit ," "no, you didn't" games? I can see that drawing out combats.
 

GreyLord

Legend
In D&D, if you want more lethal firearms, it's pretty simple. Using modern fire arms, you give them damages such as 1d4, 1d6, and 1d8.

The difference is that your character has their base HP and the rest of their HP. Base HP is what you roll at 1st level. Humans are 1HD creatures, and as such, only the 1st HD you roll are your actual HP that determine how badly you truly are hurt. Other HP are scratches or whatever, they aren't life threatening.

Unlike other weapons, Guns deal damage directly to this base HP. Say you were a Rogue. You have 8HP (in 5e) at 1st level.
At 9th level you may have 43 HP, and this helps a LOT when attacked by other weapons. When shot by a gun...it comes directly off of that intial 8 HP you rolled. Once that hits 0...your dead.

No need to escalate the damage dramatically or escalate damage percentages...this is a simple but effective method for modern fire arms which easily shows why some may choose to use a fire arm rather than a sword or axe. They just tend to be more deadly when used effectively.

At the same time, it's going to be tough to take down an Elephant or large creature without a higher caliber gun, simply because...just like in real life, sometimes your caliber will determine how big of a game you really should try to take on. The more actual HD they have, the harder it will be for a gun to take it down.
 

Laurefindel

Legend
Don’t know any game that really reflects the game-changing aspect of firearms, but I think that’s because game designers make a point not to, to keep melee combat enticing and armour relevant, especially in fantasy. In the first edition of 7th sea, firearms automatically cause drama wounds IIRC, so there’s that…

In D&D, I like to make firearms automatic damage with Dexterity save-for-nothing saving throws (or save-for-half with blunderbuss type weapons) because…

1) it differentiates firearms from other range weapons, and allows saving throw attacks for non-casters.
2) it represents the little amount of training necessary to be proficient, and the little control a proficient user has over the flawed aerodynamic nature of early firearms.
3) it bypasses armour and favours agility and mobility as a hard-to-hit target.
4) it’s easier to balance use-per-day (ammo) with power of attack, essentially turning peasants into casters with enough resources.
5) because why not?
 
Last edited:


tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I think that part of why fantasy rpgs fail so bad at including the downsides of firearms might to some degree come down to the fact that the ones available to players tend to be based on what was eventually developed & adopten in mass around the 1800s rather than any of the absolute failures developed and used through earlier eras of history in addition to downplaying whatever downsides they might have.

By coincidence I came across a pretty solid video covering some of the absurd firearms used throughout history
 
Last edited:

dragoner

KosmicRPG.com
One could make the perfect combat system using materials science, thermodynamics, classical mechanics, and then there would be crickets come time to anyone playing it.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
One could make the perfect combat system using materials science, thermodynamics, classical mechanics, and then there would be crickets come time to anyone playing it.
It all depends on the interface. Put as much of that in the underlying math as you can, and accept that you're not going to get broad appeal no matter what, and you're golden.
 

Remove ads

Top