When do you throw initiative?

[Gryph]

No, you don't. You close, ready, close, ready, and then stop and ready when you reach a certain range. You can never get close enough to fight unless you're willing to give your opponent the first shot.

No matter how you work it, you always come down to a point where your opponent is standing there with a readied attack. If you move into reach, she can make that attack before you have a chance to hit back. So you have the choice between eating the readied attack, or stopping out of reach and readying an attack of your own. The optimal strategy is to do the latter. Your opponent is then faced with the same choice.

You can ready to evade instead of attack, but the dynamic doesn't change. Your evasion would negate your opponent's attack; you would then act next and get the first strike. Therefore your opponent prefers to wait rather than give away that advantage.

The "gladiator problem" very seldom comes up in play, first because there are usually more than two combatants in a D&D fight, second because it requires that the combatants start more than 40-60 feet apart and neither has a ranged option, and third because most players and DMs aren't hell-bent on executing a theoretically perfect combat strategy. But if it does come up, it really is a Mexican standoff; the best move is not to play.

This tracks pretty closely to my SCA tournament experience. The first person to move into range has to be prepared to defend their opponents blow.

My tactic, in D&D terms, is to move and use the standard to adopt all out defense to turn the first blow.

 

[Water Bob]

Well, there's no reason you couldn't ready a move. Ready is a standard action that lets you perform any other standard, move, or swift (depending on the variation of the ruleset you are using).

"I ready an action to retreat if an enemy comes within 10' of me" is a perfectly fine readied action.

Not under 3.5. You can either move up to your Speed rating and then Ready an action, and in that action, you cannot move at all.

Or, you can not move at all and Ready an action, and when that action is triggered, you can move 5' maximum.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Water Bob, I love you and all, but please don't try to teach Grandma to suck eggs.

Not under 3.5. You can either move up to your Speed rating and then Ready an action, and in that action, you cannot move at all.

Or, you can not move at all and Ready an action, and when that action is triggered, you can move 5' maximum.

Readying an Action

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

Readying is a standard action. Most characters can take a move action and a standard action in the same round. Thus, you can move (a move action) and ready a standard, move, or free action.

"Move up to your speed" is a move action.

Thus, you can move up to your speed as a move action, ready an action to move, and then move up to your speed again later in the round as a readied action.

You are allowed to take a 5' step as part of your readied action if you have not otherwise moved on your turn. This allows you to draw a sword, ready an action to attack anyone approaching you, and then take a 5' step and attack when someone gets close. This rule has to be there because, otherwise, you could not take a 5' step as part of your readied action, as you must take a 5' step on your own turn (only certain free actions and, later, immediate actions are allowed on other characters' turns). [EDIT: Moreover, it's a conditional statement. "Only if you don't X can you Y" implies the existance of "If you do X, you can't Y." Thus, "Only if you don't otherwise move on your turn, you can take a 5' step as part of your readied action" allows for "If you do otherwise move on your turn, you cannot take a 5' step as part of your readied action."]

It does not limit you from moving as a readied action, nor specify that you may not otherwise move in a round in which you ready an action.

 

[Water Bob]

Water Bob, I love you and all, but please don't try to teach Grandma to suck eggs.

I tell everyone I know that you, Grandma, can suck eggs like nobody else!

Readying is a standard action. Most characters can take a move action and a standard action in the same round. Thus, you can move (a move action) and ready a standard, move, or free action.

Thanks for setting me straight on this. I read the rule in the D&D 3.5 Rules Compendium, and the Movement section is not written well.

I'm glad that a character can Ready a partial charge. I think that's a neat thing to do.

Thus, you can move up to your speed as a move action, ready an action to move, and then move up to your speed again later in the round as a readied action.

Basically, you can "ready" half your turn. I get it now. Needed you to slap me around a bit first, though. 'Preciate it.

I like the Ready Action even better now.

 

[steenan]

I differ in my approach from most people posting here, and agree with OP's player.

I roll initiative at the first hostile (or potentially hostile) action, not earlier. In my experience it really helps players with considering the whole range of choices, instead of being forced into violence. It also helps avoiding "Mexican standoff" type of situations, where acting puts one at disadvantage.

Even when it's certain that there will be a fight, as in the example discussed here, there may be a lot of posturing, addressing the crowd and trying to intimidate the opponent before somebody strikes. Players may try to gather some information about the opponent and their techniques by observing them before the fight, etc.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I tell everyone I know that you, Grandma, can suck eggs like nobody else!

Hah!

I'm glad that a character can Ready a partial charge. I think that's a neat thing to do.

Not so fast!

Charge is only a standard action when you are limited to a single action on your turn; thus, most zombies can ready a partial charge. Most characters cannot. Staggered characters can.

It's one of the weird wrinkles on that particular section of charge rules. IMG, I fix it by making charge a standard action that includes movement in a straight line up to your speed, rather than a full-round action that includes movement in a straight line up to twice your speed. 4E and Saga Edition take a similar approach.

Basically, you can "ready" half your turn. I get it now. Needed you to slap me around a bit first, though. 'Preciate it.

I like the Ready Action even better now.

Any time!

 

[Water Bob]

I roll initiative at the first hostile (or potentially hostile) action, not earlier. In my experience it really helps players with considering the whole range of choices, instead of being forced into violence. It also helps avoiding "Mexican standoff" type of situations, where acting puts one at disadvantage.

There is something to be said for staying in "scenes" for as long as possible before going into a detailed, tactical combat round.

When we played out this scenario in my game last Sunday, there were a couple of rounds where only movement took place--and in a combat round, it was sloooowwww going.

I'm still debating, for future needs, whether I should roll nish as a gladiator enters the ring or wait until someone makes a definite aggressive move.

Not so fast!

Crap.

I really liked the idea of Readying a partial charge.

Charge is only a standard action when you are limited to a single action on your turn; thus, most zombies can ready a partial charge. Most characters cannot. Staggered characters can.

Kinda makes no sense, huh, that a staggered character can make a partial charge but an uninjured one who readies the action cannot.

I may allow it in my game.





EDIT: To sorta be in compliance with the rules, you could rule that, in order to ready a partial charge, you cannot move at all during the part of your move before the ready action happens. You're basically limiting yourself to only a Move Action then--which the partial charge rule allows.

Thus, if Fred wanted to Ready a charge, he could only ready a partial charge and he could do nothing on his turn before the partial charge is triggered but state that he is readying the charge and describing the trigger.

I think I might Loophole it into the rules that way.

 

[garrowolf]

I think of initiative a little differently. I will often give initiative to one side or another based on their actions instead of a roll.
For example the prey in a chase always has initiative because they are setting the pace. The predator has to react to their actions.
If you have some advantage over your opponent - attacks from out of the sun, fighting from higher ground, etc. You have initiative.
You also have out of initiative attacks in my game. If a sniper is attacking you then you don't know he is there until someone is hit. If you fail to find the sniper (echoes, concealment, etc) then it remains out of initiative until both sides can act against each other.

 

[Water Bob]

I think of initiative a little differently. I will often give initiative to one side or another based on their actions instead of a roll.

I've thought about this before, but I decided against it because I figured the monsters and NPCs would get nish more often than the PCs.

Players have their characters enter a dungeon, so to say. They don't know what to expect. As GM, I know that there's a spider on the ceiling, ready to pop down on the first PC who walks through the threshold.

The PC walks through, the spider falls on him, and bam, the spider has nish.

So, I kept the throws.

For example the prey in a chase always has initiative because they are setting the pace.

Understand where you are coming from, but how do you handle this situation:

The PCs enter a room and the DM describes four goblins in a corner rolling dice. The PCs immediately charge the gobbies, so you give the PC's nish.

Seeing his first two buddies die horribly at the hands of the PCs, one of the two gobbies, on his turn, takes off, running. That's it. He's outta there.

Now, you have a situation where a character who did not have nish will have to have nish since he is the lead in a chase.

Do you take nish away from the players?





Because nish is a back-n-forth proposition, I don't think taking nish away from the players is necessary. Just keep the same order and run the chase.

Maybe you play it differently, though.

 

[Water Bob]

Hold onto your boiled eggs, there, Grandma!

Thus, you can move up to your speed as a move action, ready an action to move, and then move up to your speed again later in the round as a readied action.

Readying, itself, is a standard action, right?

Your example here says that you will: Move, Ready Action, then Move again.

That's not right, is it? You get a Standard Action and a Move Action in a round. You're giving the character a Standard action and two Move actions. Or, you're not counting the Readying part of the Ready Action as anything.

The rule specifically says that "readying" is a standard action.

Thus, you cannot move, ready an action, then move again.

You can ready an action, then move, if the move is your readied action.



I think the example talking about moving to a door and readying an attack action for anyone who comes near means that the character is using his 5' step (which he always gets) to move to the door.

A character gets a standard action and a move action during the round. If he does not otherwise move, then he gets a free 5' step.

I think what the example is saying is this: Character moves to the open door (5' step), readies an attack (Standard Action), and then will perform that attack when triggered (takes the place of his Move Action).





Therefore, anytime you ready an action, the most you can move is 5', if you move before the readied action is triggered.

You can not move at all, then use your standard action to ready an action (which is a move action), then move once the action is triggered. But you cannot do it the other way around.

If you need to position yourself more than 5' away when you want to ready an action, you can't do it in one round. You have to move to your desired location in round 1 then, in round 2, use your standard action to ready whatever it is that you want to do later in the round.