Zero to Hero!

[Klaus]

I don't think I agree with this. The question is not whether the DM can choose powerful, PC-killing monsters like Irontooth in 4E (who, by the way, is nothing but your typical level 1 goblin); it's whether typical fights allow a high-survivability rate for PCs in 4E vs previous editions, if the DM so wishes.

Personally, I think that 4E allows for the possibility of higher survival rates at low level.

The reason is that the lowest level monsters (level 1) in 4E don't deal enough damage to put a PC unconscious in one shot. Most PCs start with 20+ HPs. Recommended normal damage expressions for level 1 monsters don't do 20+ damage. Thus, it's likely that a PC will remain standing after one attack in 4E.

In 3E and before, however, first level PCs could easily be downed with a single stroke by weak opponents that dealt 1d6, 1d8 or 1d10 damage plus bonuses. With a mage that had 1d4 (+ possible small bonus) hit points, or a rogue that had 1d6 (+ possible small bonus) hit points, chances of going down in one shot was present; chances of going down in one battle was high. 3E alleviated this partly by providing max HPs at level 1, but still, starting out with 6 HPs and meeting a basic orc warrior with a basic long sword was stressful.

So in previous editions, even if the DM didn't want to kill the PCs, it was a bit harder because your basic, run-of-the-mill opponent could well down a PC with a single basic attack.

That's the thing: there is no longer a "typical level 1 goblin". Each creature is its own thing, and a DM can make the game really deadly if he wants to (just as he could in previous editions). A kobold could be a real threat (like a slyblade), or could be a pushover that got a lucky shot (a minion), right out of the box.

 

[Raikun]

I've seen more TPKs with 4e in 3 years, than I ever saw in any other edition in over 30 years.

That's because it's hard to TPK when individual players are rerolling their 3rd character of the evening to add to the party because a kobold killed another wizard with one 3 damage hit. *rimshot*

 

[Victim]

Low level 4e PCs are less likely to die randomly because they have more HP, healing, better gear, etc.

However, the monsters have the same advantages. Instead of cleaving through kobolds, orcs, and goblins with a hit each, a kobold can outmatch a PC one on one. Meanwhile, orcs have several levels on the characters.

So yeah, PCs don't die in one shot. But they still feel lot a lot weaker IMO. Sure, you couldn't do like 20 damage and toss a big enemy around previously. But since before, you'd just kill them with like 6 damage, it hardly seems like an improvement. To me, the bad guys having more HP is completely relevant to the comparison. Doing something "awesome" that doesn't kill the enemy seems a lot less awesome than just having them die. The overall impact of the action is less even if it has more fireworks.

 

[Skyscraper]

Interesting topic here, and I like what many posters have said up to now (and agree with some of it).

One thing I wish to mention on hero vs zero, which is somewhat related to the present topic:

In 4E, the game system presents a power framework for opponents that is relative to the PCs, and in this framework the PCs appear powerful relative to ordinary townsfolk. In prior D&D versions, the power framework was absolute and the players were closer to ordinary townsfolk when they started.

I know some people disagree with this basic assessment, but I can't explain a 1-HP level 23 minion devil except when considering that it has 1 hit point against PCs of the same level as the PCs, or just about. In other words, the power of monsters is not an absolute value, it is a power level provided for use with PCs that have approximately the same level as the monster (as stated in the DMG).

With that in mind, I'll look at a level 1 PC, since this is the starting point for a PC we're talking about in this thread. Is he a mook, or is he a hero? Well, it's all a question of DM decisions and setting really, because if the DM populates his world with level 5 eiltes as basic farmers, the PCs will be mooks. But assuming that level 1 minions exist galore, I think the level 1 PC is quite the hero because your ordinary townsfolk or farmer is likely to be a level 1 minion. Thus, most people he crosses on the road is a level 1 minion compared to him, which makes him the hero.

Thus the difference in power in 4E between a level 1 PC who has 25 HPs and a multitue of attacks and a level 1 minion (the lowest stat provided in any monster reference - yes you can decide that some opponents are even weaker if you wish) is much greater than the difference in power in 3E or in 1E between a level 1 PC and level 0 opponents or commoners or such people statted with the lowest power stats in the books. So 4E in my mind clearly suggests that the PCs are heroes much above the power level of ordinary townsfolk, moreso than 1E or 3E.

I understand that some opponents such as Irontooth can pause a great challenge to 4E characters and honestly I don't see a significant different in death probabilities in the games I play or where I DM in 4E compared to prior editions, because the DM chooses to pit challenging opponents agains the PCs; so yeah, 4E can be as deadly as prior versions. But it's clear to me that 4E characters are meant to be more powerful compared to ordinary townsfolk, than prior edition characters. It's just that the opponents can also be tougher.

 

[Skyscraper]

That's the thing: there is no longer a "typical level 1 goblin". Each creature is its own thing, and a DM can make the game really deadly if he wants to (just as he could in previous editions). A kobold could be a real threat (like a slyblade), or could be a pushover that got a lucky shot (a minion), right out of the box.

Like you say: the DM can make the game as deadly as he wants.

I think the question is: assuming the DM is not out to kill the PCs, he's just playing it out with moderately easy encounters, how likely is it that the PCs will die nonetheless?

Again, in 1E-3E, a single basic-attack sword, hand axe, quarterstaff or mace stroke from a run-of-the-mill minion could down one PC. I'm not even talking about stronger opponents or those wielding stronger weapons such as a greataxe or the like.

In 4E, only stronger opponents with relatively powerful encounter powers can one-shot a PC. Minions are far from threatening, and most level 1 standard opponents can't down a PC in a single attack.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Talking about the relative power levels of PCs vs. minions is something of a fallacy.

I hate to use this word, because it's one of those words that cause arguments, but it's applying a kind of simulationist thinking that doesn't fit. Minions are more of a narrative device than anything. They are the orcs the Fellowship mows down, the Stormtroopers in Star Wars, etc. They don't have a "power level" as much as they have a purpose: To make the heroes look good.

They don't really have a direct parallel in earlier editions of D&D. The closest parallel is throwing goblins at name level characters or something like that. But even that is a very in-apt comparison because minions can be a credible threat even in relatively small numbers.

 

[Dice4Hire]

L
Again, in 1E-3E, a single basic-attack sword, hand axe, quarterstaff or mace stroke from a run-of-the-mill minion could down one PC. I'm not even talking about stronger opponents or those wielding stronger weapons such as a greataxe or the like.

In 4E, only stronger opponents with relatively powerful encounter powers can one-shot a PC. Minions are far from threatening, and most level 1 standard opponents can't down a PC in a single attack.

Bringing minions into it does the argument no good.

If the 1st level PC is against a typical 1st level creature, yes, they will likely win. But it will take a few shots on either side before this happens. The kobold will not go down in one shot and neither will the 1st level PC.

4E is designed that way. For better or worse.

This is one area that really cannot be compared well with previous editions as the basic assumption of combat has changed.

Again, for better or worse.

 

[Raikun]

Talking about the relative power levels of PCs vs. minions is something of a fallacy.

PCs vs. minions isn't really the main comparison though. The post above yours for instance, mentions minions once, in the same sentence that he says "and most level 1 standard opponents can't down a PC in a single attack."

Which is true. I've never seen a character in 4e drop in a single attack. Earlier editions though, it was not an uncommon occurrence.

 

[Raikun]

If the 1st level PC is against a typical 1st level creature, yes, they will likely win. But it will take a few shots on either side before this happens. The kobold will not go down in one shot and neither will the 1st level PC.

Yep, and thanks to healing surges and the increased number of healing effects, as well as giving PCs the time to live long enough to use them...it gives them a big boost in survivability vs the kobolds/etc. compared to past editions.

 

[Abraxas]

Seems like you've never experienced the beauty of ongoing damage after falling unconscious.

I've seen more TPKs with 4e in 3 years, than I ever saw in any other edition in over 30 years.

Hmm - I haven't seen even one TPK in 4e and we've been playing since it's release. Also, prior to epic level I've only seen 2 PCs die - and both were killed by other PCs. Post epic 3 PCs have died, but because of epic destinies - came right back.