Rule of Three for 7/25

[dangerous jack]

The thing is (XP aside) there's nothing else that a character has that it can pay that it doesn't just get back in 5 minutes or a day. AP, HS, HP, whatever become totally situational costs and the players can meta-game the heck out of that. So basically we're left with GP and XP, take your pick...

How about using a modification of the disease track? Instead of Endurance: Arcana or Religion could be used to prevent the ritual you cast from consuming/overwhelming you?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

What's wrong with using non-permanent resources? Lower the gp-cost, sure, but add a cost in HS (or AP or, how about this for an idea, daily arcane powers? Or a durable-esque feat that gives you 3 HS that can only be used to fuel HS-fueled rituals?) That achieves the dual goals of making them relevant early without making them spamable later on.

And hey, has everyone forgotten Knock? Cost a HS. Great template for the idea. (Let's not talk about martial practices; too far the other way, and just not that useful.)

Yes, but again, what ARE these costs. If I'm sitting in my castle casting Divinations to scope out the enemy or actually using a LOT of rituals in situations where combat isn't imminent none of these costs means diddly. I'm sitting in my living room with 6 surges instead of 7. Yeah, someone could jump in the window and attack me right after I cast the ritual, but if I was low on surges already I will wait till morning (as I am surely not doing much else anyway at that point). Now, a cost of an HS MIGHT be a significant cost in many situations, but there are plenty of situations where I could just spam quite useful rituals all day and unless there's a permanent resource cost they're just freebies. Especially with Divinatins this could get old fast.

Sure, there are rituals like Knock, Tenser's Disc, etc that mostly will only be useful during exploration where it could be an effective cost most of the time, but it is actually probably too high a cost for low level rituals in those cases. Who would EVER use TD if they had to pay an HS? And if you are at a level where the GP cost is trivial its not a problem now if you are just using it left and right. At low level you won't, but you can still afford to use it in a case where it really matters.

 

[mudlock]

Yes, but again, what ARE these costs. If I'm sitting in my castle casting Divinations to scope out the enemy or actually using a LOT of rituals in situations where combat isn't imminent none of these costs means diddly.

Okay, yes; I'm thinking of exploration rituals and on-the-fly divinations, while you're thinking of massive scrying.

I agree, HS are not a problem for a diviner sitting at home. If those sort of "downtime" rituals are a problem, then there is nothing that can be done to fix them with resource costs alone. The only "resource" left is time... which has the same solution as the five-minute-work-day; make time matter. Don't those big scrys have 8 hour (or more?) casting times?

You could also make them castable on a restricted schedule ("only during the full moon" or whatever); you could also take the teleport route and require that the focus be fixed (are your PCs really carting around their 30,000 gp mirror?) which makes travel time a concern too.

On the other hand, all the diviniation rituals are just an excuse for the DM to tell the players what they need to know, and they all encourage being cryptic. What kind of plots are you letting them ruin with multiple major scrys? I haven't played up beyond mid-paragon in 4e, so an example or two of the problem you're trying to fix could be beneficial.

 

[JoeGKushner]

All errata and updates are put into the living update document that we host online. At this point we have no plans of releasing updated Player’s Handbooks or other updated books.

I remember not that long ago when WoTC was quoted as saying there were no plans for reprinting the Player's Handbook and quickly backtracked saying, "No, we just have a huge stockload."

Now we see the other shoe drop.

People keep saying that we have to take WoTC at their word when they say things online and I keep saying, "By their deeds you shall know them."

 

[mudlock]

All errata and updates are put into the living update document that we host online. At this point we have no plans of releasing updated Player’s Handbooks or other updated books.

I remember not that long ago when WoTC was quoted as saying there were no plans for reprinting the Player's Handbook and quickly backtracked saying, "No, we just have a huge stockload."

Now we see the other shoe drop.

Those statements aren't contradictory, and both are fair reasons for taking that action.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Okay, yes; I'm thinking of exploration rituals and on-the-fly divinations, while you're thinking of massive scrying.

I agree, HS are not a problem for a diviner sitting at home. If those sort of "downtime" rituals are a problem, then there is nothing that can be done to fix them with resource costs alone. The only "resource" left is time... which has the same solution as the five-minute-work-day; make time matter. Don't those big scrys have 8 hour (or more?) casting times?

You could also make them castable on a restricted schedule ("only during the full moon" or whatever); you could also take the teleport route and require that the focus be fixed (are your PCs really carting around their 30,000 gp mirror?) which makes travel time a concern too.

On the other hand, all the diviniation rituals are just an excuse for the DM to tell the players what they need to know, and they all encourage being cryptic. What kind of plots are you letting them ruin with multiple major scrys? I haven't played up beyond mid-paragon in 4e, so an example or two of the problem you're trying to fix could be beneficial.

Well, lets see... There are tons of high level rituals you probably don't want to just give free access to. Many of them take time to cast, etc, but you are gaining some nice advantages. There are relatively fewer lower level rituals, but many more of them, so there are definitely problematic rituals. Then there is the whole class of "must have a cost" rituals (crafting, etc). So you will end up with 2 systems or a mix of gold and surge costs.

I think the issue isn't rituals, the issue is parcels. They are a great idea for controlling the wealth in the game and access to magic, but that great strength is also a great weakness. Every player knows that between now and level N there's only so much gold coming down the pike and only so many items, etc. You can give away all sorts of forms of story money if you want, but if gold is A) genuinely useful and a feature of the character, and B) you have a fixed limited supply doled out to you over the game, then C) everyone will horde money and never want to spend it on consumables.

So, when people say there's a problem with the GP cost of rituals, what they need to do is either break the link between gold and magic items, or stop giving out fixed amounts of it. You can still give out on average reasonable amounts of treasure, but if the players know of the possibility that they could hit it big and have money to spare in the future then they are more likely to spend it now.

You really also have to give these things genuine value in your game. It really isn't enough to just say "well, you have these rituals and as you navigate the maze of Zagyg you may take occasion to use them if you wish." Instead there need to be situations where a ritual is the best answer. If the party doesn't have it, won't use it, or isn't bothering to think out of box, then oh well, they can do it the harder way or the more dangerous way, or maybe someone will sell them a scroll, etc.

 

[mudlock]

Well, lets see... There are tons of high level rituals you probably don't want to just give free access to. Many of them take time to cast, etc, but you are gaining some nice advantages. There are relatively fewer lower level rituals, but many more of them, so there are definitely problematic rituals. Then there is the whole class of "must have a cost" rituals (crafting, etc). So you will end up with 2 systems or a mix of gold and surge costs.

Knock. Or "we already do."

I think the issue isn't rituals, the issue is parcels. They are a great idea for controlling the wealth in the game and access to magic, but that great strength is also a great weakness. Every player knows that between now and level N there's only so much gold coming down the pike and only so many items, etc.

Smoke and mirrors; as is being discussed in another thread.

You can give away all sorts of forms of story money if you want, but if gold is A) genuinely useful and a feature of the character, and B) you have a fixed limited supply doled out to you over the game, then C) everyone will horde money and never want to spend it on consumables.

Certainly a problem. The same one that's seen with daily powers. The solution is the same; make the use of it worth it. Which you say later, but I don't think you have to "break the link between gold and magic items" to do it.

Instead there need to be situations where a ritual is the best answer. If the party doesn't have it, won't use it, or isn't bothering to think out of box, then oh well, they can do it the harder way or the more dangerous way, or maybe someone will sell them a scroll, etc.

Funny you should mention that, because I'm building an element of my next adventure around the party getting a scroll of a significantly higher level ritual. Only the party is 2nd and the ritual is 8th. (Obviously I'm open to them thinking of other ways around the problem, but this is one solution I'm making available to them.)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Knock. Or "we already do."

Yes, one ritual, which you will note also has a GP cost. The point is you aren't getting rid of the GP cost then you are just making rituals even WORSE, and so far nobody has managed to make any except a small number of predefined rituals free.

Smoke and mirrors; as is being discussed in another thread.

Except of course you are all complaining about GP cost of rituals... So which is it, smoke and mirrors or the thing that in player's calculations is worth enough to forgo using really useful capabilities of their character? Parcels are putting you on a budget. Pure and simple and so it is parcels that are the problem. Get rid of parcels, you have gone a long way to getting rid of the problem. See, the players will know now "well, gold is a renewable resource, there's a potentially unlimited supply out there we can get, so we can spend it. Maybe we don't want to waste it too much, but there will always be more."

Certainly a problem. The same one that's seen with daily powers. The solution is the same; make the use of it worth it. Which you say later, but I don't think you have to "break the link between gold and magic items" to do it.

I think I stated you could make gold not a finite resource and the problem goes away A and B implies C, so if B is false then C doesn't happen.

Funny you should mention that, because I'm building an element of my next adventure around the party getting a scroll of a significantly higher level ritual. Only the party is 2nd and the ritual is 8th. (Obviously I'm open to them thinking of other ways around the problem, but this is one solution I'm making available to them.)

Of course, so you took my advice! The thing is JUST doing that probably isn't enough. If it was why is everyone still complaining?

My answer basically comes down to breaking path dependence. Instead of having parcels just decide that you'll shoot for a wealth of X at whatever level. Maybe there will be more if the players are clever, and maybe less if they don't, but instead of doling out fixed amounts of gold, inducing hording, the idea is "adventurers are about so wealthy at level 10" It doesn't have to be anything the DM ever mentions aside from "we won't use parcels", every game gets balanced at some point anyway by the DM. If the players are too profligate then it hurts them some. They just aren't pinching every gold piece anymore.

 

[Balesir]

The thing is (XP aside) there's nothing else that a character has that it can pay that it doesn't just get back in 5 minutes or a day. AP, HS, HP, whatever become totally situational costs and the players can meta-game the heck out of that. So basically we're left with GP and XP, take your pick...

What about adding a new resource that you get only at milestones? Permanent foci and crafted items still need to cost money, but just "charge" one milestone per ritual for anything else that needs "control". The resource should be persistent (not lost at an Extended rest).

Just an idea.

 

[JohnnyO]

Have you considered adding ritual-specific loot to treasure parcels (incense, rare herbs, etc)?

I've augmented treasure parcels in the past with various ritual components to encourage ritual casting. It worked well.