A magic pool - ideas wanted

[Jon_Dahl]

I was thinking about the following scenario:
An evil low-level cleric has found a magic pool in an ancient dungeon. This magic pool induces a permanent mutation to anyone who drinks from it, but the liquid is also deadly poisonous. The mutation can only affect a living creature once.

Players manage to defeat the cleric and find his notes, where he curses the fact that he's not able to neutralize poisons. One the PCs however can (8th-level cleric).

So in your opinion what kind of effects the pool could/should have and how to handle it game-mechanically? Let me give you some examples:

- Acquired template.
But if the template has any decent level of strength or usefulness, it will also have LA. And this LA can be frustrating because it will slow down the PC while perhaps not having the desired advantage in character optimizing. Of course I could warn the player, but this brings us to the zone of horrible metagaming: Why would the PC give up a chance to have some special powers just because it's not worth +1 LA? The very idea makes me shrudder...
- Possibility to take a supernatural feat.
This sounds ok, but it takes a while until anyone can take a feat.
- Simply give a special ability without any cost or hindrance.
But this seems very contradictory to the spirit of D&D. Every power comes with a price, such as Level Adjustment. Also if one of the PCs die and they aren't able to access the magic pool again, the new character will be at disadvantage. And also the idea of going to pool every time there's a new PC sucks.

I don't know. I feel that I might end up breaking my beloved game quite easily with this one, so I'd appreciate some insight.

Info about the group, just in case:
7th-level Dwarf Monk LN, 8th-level Human Fighter NG, 6th-level Lizardman Barbarian NG, 8th-level Human Cleric CG, 8th-level Half-elf Ranger CG

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

One option could be to look at the Geomancer PrC, Complete Divine p.41 the list of Drifts which are devolution changes that grant different abilities. There are 50 Drifts to choose from, arranged in Stages with 10 choices per stage. Stage 1 changes have no mechanical effect, and each stage has increasingly more powerful abilities. Read over the list, choose which levels of power you think are reasonable, (maybe the stage 2-4 lists?) and assign those to a die roll.

Some examples are:

Stage 2-
A small camel's hump grows on your back. You can go without water for up to five days.
You become as graceful as a cat. You gain a +4 on balance checks.

Stage 3-
You sprout fish gills. You can breathe both water and air.
Your eyes become as sharp as an owls. You gain a +4 on spot checks in dusk or darkness.

Stage 4-
You gain a boar's ferocity. You continue to fight without penalty even when disabled or dying.
You can grab like a bear. You gain the Improved Grab ability.

Stage 5-
You gain the tremorsense of an earthworm. You can sense anything in contact with the ground within 30 feet of you.
Feathered or Batlike wings grow from your back. You gain a fly speed of 60 feet.

consult the book for all the options.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

There are the nine "Elder Secrets" of the Fleshwarper PrC (in "Lords of Madness") that might make interesting mutations, if you're planning to use tat PrC in your game. Roll one Secret randomly for any character that drinks from the pool. Not sure exactly how to balance it, maybe offset the benefit of the Secret with a -2 (or 1d3+1) permanent ability drain to a random ability score.

You could also tack on a Fort save to resist some Con damage for the toxic pool water. (Just because it's no longer "deadly" doesn't mean it has to be perfectly "safe" )

Given the rp disadvantages and the loss of ability associated with the Secrets, a PC would have to decide if he actually wants to risk drinking from the pool to get a benefit.

[edit] the Elder Secrets provide useful things like natural armor, skill check bonuses, movement modes or the the like.

[edit] And if you don't want future PCs coming back to the pool, just make sure an earthquake levels the place at some point, cracks floor, and drains the pool. Problem solved!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

There's a whole letter devoted to random magical pools in the every-DM-should-have-it Dungeon Alphabet.

 

[kitcik]

Look at the D20 Gamma World Player's Handbook.

There are many mutations listed (major and minor, good and bad).

 

[Celebrim]

"So in your opinion what kind of effects the pool could/should have..."

This is a wierd question. Am I DMing your campaign?

The real question here is do you want this to be pure win, a Gygaxian style gamble, a test of player greed/stupidity, or a balanced tradeoff where you get something equivalent to what you lose?

A) It's a pure win: This is equivelent to giving everyone a magic item that they can't lose. Make sure you keep the mutation fairly small and unobtrusive, and make sure you count this against the loot that they have. This is an interesting way of randomly distributing the loot thereby forcing less specialization than you'd have otherwise. If you go this way though, make sure the pool loses its magical properties permenently (or at least for the duration of the campaign) after everyone has tried a sample. Fluid replenishes at a slow rate (one does every 100 years or something). Whatever.

B) It's a Gygaxian roulette wheel: It should have everything from congradulations you win (LA template +4), to roll up a new character (LA template -4, or 'you die'). Big problem here is going to be modern gamers. If your group is the type that gets cranky if Bob gets a more powerful character than everyone else, and insists that their replacement characters be as powerful as Bob's, then don't go this way.

C) It's a balanced tradeoff: As A, but more obvious mutations that have hampering physical or social effects. Bonuses to something are offset by penalties at least as large in other areas. Has both the problems of A and B, but doesn't require you to implement as hard of limits. Maybe there are enough doses to go around 3-4 times. (This could morph into D below if the characters are too greedy simply by accumulation of drawbacks, ei: "You now look like a total freak.") Differences in coolness are likely to be much smaller and easier for the party to accept.

D) It's a test of player Greed: As C, but the penalties massively overwhelm the rewards, including things like, 'The stuff is addictive, and you have massive and potentially lethal withdraw symptoms if you don't keep taking it." or "You don't stop evolving, you get new crap sprouting out of you every month from here on out." or "Sure, you get an extra attack. It's just that you can't control that third limb and it wildly attacks anything - including allies - that get within 5' of you". In this case, you are testing whether the players are dumb enough to try magical experimentation on their own bodies without first trying it out on say a monkey or a dog to see what happens. However, in this case, the dumb decision ought to be reversible with extensive player effort.

Make up your mind which way you are going with this, and I'll be more than happy to help you create random tables.

 

[domino]

- Simply give a special ability without any cost or hindrance.
But this seems very contradictory to the spirit of D&D. Every power comes with a price, such as Level Adjustment.

I think of Level Adjustment as a way of determining power, not of reining it in. Unless you make a theme of power at a price, there's no reason I think you can't just give them some ability without a cost. Treasure is much the same way, I feel. Advantages, either damage, special abilities, or just money, without an inherent downside.

Though the thing about new characters joining is a valid point. But, if you wanted to do, say, the Aquired Template thing, the LA would give you a basis for how to even things up. New guy doesn't have special powers, but he gets +1 HD/Level compared to the LA +1 characters.

How outrageous do you want the mutations to be? Huge things, like turning someone into a lizard man, or maybe minor things, like replacing their hair with feathers?

 

[Ravilah]

I had a magic pool that made a person, on the outside, what they truly were on the inside. Someone who was pure, honest, and totally at peace with themselves would not change at all.

Of course, I was only able to pull this off because my players were all pretty good at developing their characters...that, and I had kinda fished for this information obliquely during the previous weeks.

The fighter was an immature bully, so he became a scrappy child. The rouge had an insatiable lust for gold, so he became a dragon. The wizard knew who and what he was, so he didn't change. The monk and ranger decided to abstain.

In another version of this, from another game, a good-hearted boy drank from it and became a "knight in shining armor" but the NPC knight drank from it and became a monster.

(This would definitely be Celebrim category B)

 

[Jon_Dahl]

"So in your opinion what kind of effects the pool could/should have..."

This is a wierd question. Am I DMing your campaign?

The real question here is do you want this to be pure win, a Gygaxian style gamble, a test of player greed/stupidity, or a balanced tradeoff where you get something equivalent to what you lose?

A) It's a pure win: This is equivelent to giving everyone a magic item that they can't lose. Make sure you keep the mutation fairly small and unobtrusive, and make sure you count this against the loot that they have. This is an interesting way of randomly distributing the loot thereby forcing less specialization than you'd have otherwise. If you go this way though, make sure the pool loses its magical properties permenently (or at least for the duration of the campaign) after everyone has tried a sample. Fluid replenishes at a slow rate (one does every 100 years or something). Whatever.

B) It's a Gygaxian roulette wheel: It should have everything from congradulations you win (LA template +4), to roll up a new character (LA template -4, or 'you die'). Big problem here is going to be modern gamers. If your group is the type that gets cranky if Bob gets a more powerful character than everyone else, and insists that their replacement characters be as powerful as Bob's, then don't go this way.

C) It's a balanced tradeoff: As A, but more obvious mutations that have hampering physical or social effects. Bonuses to something are offset by penalties at least as large in other areas. Has both the problems of A and B, but doesn't require you to implement as hard of limits. Maybe there are enough doses to go around 3-4 times. (This could morph into D below if the characters are too greedy simply by accumulation of drawbacks, ei: "You now look like a total freak.") Differences in coolness are likely to be much smaller and easier for the party to accept.

D) It's a test of player Greed: As C, but the penalties massively overwhelm the rewards, including things like, 'The stuff is addictive, and you have massive and potentially lethal withdraw symptoms if you don't keep taking it." or "You don't stop evolving, you get new crap sprouting out of you every month from here on out." or "Sure, you get an extra attack. It's just that you can't control that third limb and it wildly attacks anything - including allies - that get within 5' of you". In this case, you are testing whether the players are dumb enough to try magical experimentation on their own bodies without first trying it out on say a monkey or a dog to see what happens. However, in this case, the dumb decision ought to be reversible with extensive player effort.

Make up your mind which way you are going with this, and I'll be more than happy to help you create random tables.

Despite your rather confrontational style, I still appreciate your views. Good stuff!

I was thinking about maybe something a bit Gygaxian, but I'm still wondering how to "balance" the special abilities/hindrances. Like you said, maybe they count as loot?

I made this (it's nothing final)

Roll 1d100

1. Bite (skeleton’s claw damage)
2. Poisonous bite (skeleton’s claw damage, 3/day - blue whinnis)
3. Claws or Talons (skeleton’s claw damage)
4. Gore (skeleton’s claw damage)
5. Slap or Slam (skeleton’s claw damage)
6. Sting (skeleton’s claw damage)
7. Tentacle (skeleton’s claw damage)
8. Camel hump (CoD 43)
9. Fur (+2 to saves vs. nonleathal heat damage)
10. Webbed feet (CoD 43)
11. Speed (+5 ft)
12. Great comeliness (+4 diplomacy)
13. Sprout leaves & become photosynthetic (CoD)
14. Low-light vision
15. Octopus’ skin adaption (CoD)
16. Psi-Like Ability: 1/day—energy ray. A maenad can deal only sonic damage with this ability. It is accompanied by a tremendous scream of rage. Manifester level is equal to ½ Hit Dice (minimum 1st). The save DC is Charisma-based (Complete Psionic)
17. +2 racial bonus to any skill (player’s choice)
18. -4 racial penalty to any skill (player’s choice)
19. 5 resistance to energy of player’s choice
20. Vulnerability to energy of player’s choice
21. 1/day - Corrupting gaze without charisma damage (see Ghost)
22. Scent
23. Feeble (UA)
24. Frail (UA)
25. Inattentive (UA)
26. Meager Fortitude (UA)
27. Murky-Eyed (UA)
28. Noncombatant (UA)
29. Pathetic (UA)
30. Poor Reflexes (UA)
31. Shaky (UA)
32. Slow (UA)
33. Unreactive (UA)
34. Vulnerable (UA)
35. Weak Will (UA)
36. Permanently lose 12 hp
37. Horrific physical change (type changes to a monstrous humanoid)
38. Lose 1000 XP
39. Lose all memories
40. Permanently gain 10 lbs (pure fat)
41. A dying character loses 4 hit point every round
42. Change gender
43. Immediately age 10 years
44. Permanent infertility
45. Permanently speak with a high-pitched voice
46. You are affected by Cockatrice’s Petrification (normal save allowed)
47. Permanent insanity (Unearthed Arcana - Table 6-10: Long-Term Temporary Insanity Effects)
48. Badger’s Rage (Ex)
49. You became a reptilian (gain reptilian subtype)
50. You gain an elemental subtype of a choice
51. Character’s tongue transforms into a long mandible (capable of holding a light weapon)
52. Accurate Jaunt (UA)
53. Bladeproof Skin (UA)
54. Breadth of Knowledge (UA)
55. Conductivity (UA)
56. Controlled Immolation (UA)
57. Eyes to the Sky (UA)
58. False Pretenses (UA)
59. Ineluctable Echo (UA)
60. Life Leech (UA)
61. Live My Nightmare (UA)
62. Momentary Alteration (UA)
63. Naturalized Denizen (UA)
64. Omniscient Whispers (UA)
65. Photosynthetic Skin (UA)
66. Polar Chill (UA)
67. Residual Rebound (UA)
68. Stench of the Dead (UA)
69. Telepathy (see Special Abilities)
70. Skin turns to violet
71. Skin turns to green
72. Skin turns to pink
73. Skin turns to red
74. Skin turns to blue
75. Lose all body hair permanently
76. Smite Evil (Su) - Once per day the creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD total (maximum of +10) against an evil foe.
77. Smite Good (Su) - Once per day the creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD total (maximum of +10) against a good foe.
78. Smite Chaos (Su) - Once per day the creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD total (maximum of +10) against a chaotic foe.
79. Smite Law (Su) - Once per day the creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD total (maximum of +10) against a lawful foe.
80. Prestidigitation as spell-like ability at will (Sp)
81. +1 natural armor
82. -1 natural armor
83. Secret of Aboleth (LoM)
84. Secret of Beholder (LoM)
85. Secret of Choker (LoM)
86. Secret of Destrachan (LoM)
87. Secret of Ettercap (LoM)
88. Secret of Gibbering Mouther (LoM)
89. Secret of Mind Flayer (LoM)
90. Secret of Otyugh (LoM)
91. Secret of Umber Hulk (LoM)
92. Unarmed attacks and natural weapons count as silver and cold iron weapons
93. ?
94. ?
95. ?
96. ?
97. 1/day – Overland Flight as 5th-level caster (Sp)
98. Roll twice
99. Roll thrice
100. Player’s choice (from this list)

Brackets have references to different sources etc.

Edit: How about a XP-cost, equilavent to Permanency's XP cost to make personal spells permanent? A flat cost of 1500 XP should be more or less fair, in average. Maybe 2500 for the Overland Flight...

 

[Celebrim]

Despite your rather confrontational style, I still appreciate your views.

Sorry, bit autistic and all. Don't mean to be confrontational except in the sense that I'd like to provoke thinking about the problem in a different way.

I program for a living. You are asking for a system (code) without actually describing what you want (specs). What I was showing was that different specs would produce radically different products while all meeting the overly loose requirements of, "Create a system for arbitrating the outcome of a magic pool"

I was thinking about maybe something a bit Gygaxian, but I'm still wondering how to "balance" the special abilities/hindrances. Like you said, maybe they count as loot?

I don't usually formally track loot, but one way to look at this is that they are taking magic items out of the pool and hense increasing their wealth level. So, if the benefits are largely positive, you have to count this against their expected wealth by level. If you do that, then the system is as balanced (or unbalanced) as D&D's wealth by level system and CR/EL system itself. Nothing else is needed in theory. I mean, "Can use overland flight 1/day" is more or less giving the character an item that can do that for practically all purposes.

Now, if your system is truly Gygaxian, then it basically balances itself in the sense at least that it balances reward with risk. And yours seems to offer lots of risk with the rewards, so as long as your are fine with some players getting screwed and others getting rewarded, then you are balanced.

70. Skin turns to violet
71. Skin turns to green
72. Skin turns to pink
73. Skin turns to red
74. Skin turns to blue
75. Lose all body hair permanently

You are running all of these as if they are quirks, but they are all special cases of 'looks like a freak'. In my game, I usually run 'freak' disadvantages as either a penalty on diplomacy checks with first acquaintances (once people get to know you, they stop judging you by your looks), or by asserting that everyone reacts to you one step more negatively (ei, normally indifferent characters are unfriendly, and normally unfriendly ones are hostile). I tend to prefer the latter, though in some cases they stack.

I don't know the mechanics of most of the citations you make, but I'd be inclined to consider 'looks like a freak' a default drawback to many of them, and I'd be especially tempted to apply the drawback as an additional drawback whenever 2 or more physical mutations were picked up.

76. Smite Evil (Su) - Once per day the creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD total (maximum of +10) against an evil foe.
77. Smite Good (Su) - Once per day the creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD total (maximum of +10) against a good foe.
78. Smite Chaos (Su) - Once per day the creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD total (maximum of +10) against a chaotic foe.
79. Smite Law (Su) - Once per day the creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD total (maximum of +10) against a lawful foe.

Shouldn't this be tied to character alignment? I'd probably run the above as, "If you are Chaotic, gain smite Law, otherwise suffer 3d8 anarchic damage." or something along those lines.

Also, if you are going the Gygaxian route, I find the idea of 'player's choice' which you use in some cases to be odd. In practice, that's probably a bad idea, in that negatives don't in fact balance with positives in those cases. Boosting your skill in something you do all the time is very difficult to balance against a negative in a skill you never use and rarely if ever would have to use because some skillful person will be nearby to do it for you.

Edit: How about a XP-cost, equilavent to Permanency's XP cost to make personal spells permanent? A flat cost of 1500 XP should be more or less fair, in average. Maybe 2500 for the Overland Flight...

I would consider that overly harsh. I would only apply such costs to being able to choose from the table. So, maybe one entry is, "Lose 1500 XP. Player gets to choose one benefit."