Dealing with paranoid players

[Virel]

Hey Elfwitch,

Maybe they are Paranoid players, maybe not. Bad gaming experiences from the past, that makes it sound like they are victims. Who knows? I very much doubt any real old school player that still plays is a scared victim because of AD&D, maimed from being able to properly play new school style. Being flexiable is also part of old school gaming.

I think their behavior makes perfect sense IF they are the sort of players who's real enjoyment is spoiling other peoples fun. Their are players like that. It can be very amusing to wreck something someone else cares about, gives a sense of power and control. Getting your roomate DM so upset that she's almost in tears...well they have power and control over her. She gave it to them.

Sounds like this is the DM that had the little skeletons that were animated via necromatic magic as treasure and one of the dill weed players smashed them. Here how this works. She cares about the game. She cares enough to put time into it to make it nice and fun. Some types of players like to hurt DM's that.

You say they are friends but this sounds like two guys teasing two girls. Are you sure other feelings aren't involved somewhere along the way in this little group? It's grade school, I think your cute so I pull your hair.

If they know you post on Enworld etc, they both may be sitting back having a nice chuckle at all the drama they have stirred up.

 

[Hussar]

^ anyone else think the above post is a bit creepy? O.O

As I said WAYYY back on the first page, this is baggage being brought forward from previous games. And, Elf Witch, your point about some DM's making every NPC out to screw the group is VERY spot on. If the experience a player has had is with that sort of antagonistic DM, then it can be a real chore to break the habit. From their point of view, they're not doing anything wrong because their behavior is perfectly acceptable based on how they used to play.

Being upfront about the amount of death, or using some form of Fate points to mitigate death (my personal fav was, burn all your remaining Action Points to be stable at -5 hp, regardless of what actually killed you - it meant that the party could tpk, but, anything less than that and your PC wouldn't die) goes a really long way towards breaking that habit.

I would also add, having the NPC's go out of their way to be helpful for a while, just to show that the NPC's are not out to screw the party isn't a bad way to go either. Not that they have to bend over backwards, but, have the NPC's be nice as the default, rather than the exception. The bartender isn't surly, but friendly as is the waitress. That guard that you meet is more than willing to pass on some gossip. The merchant makes a mistake and gives you a deal. That sort of thing.

I think the DM needs to be pretty proactive here in order to break the cycle.

 

[Elf Witch]

First of all I need to say this while there have been a couple of rough spots in the game we have been playing together for a long time and it is not always frustrating and we often have a blast.

Also the guys are not asshats in real life. They would never go out of their way to ruin anyone else fun.

Part of the issue is play style and we are working on that issue.

For the other two they have to unlearn years of a certain playstyle and we are putting measures in place to make the game more fun for everyone.

We are all trying to find a middle ground. Give them the planning they need without overdoing it but also allow me to do the more off the wall things without endangering the party.

The player who got upset is a special case right now. He has some bad things he is overcoming in real life. He lost the woman he was going to marry to cancer then his business because of the economy and he has been reduced to working odd jobs and being a short order cook at Waffle House.

The only pleasurable thing he has in his life right now is gaming. He gets over emotional very easily. Sometimes it is hard to deal with but that is what friends do. All of us sometimes find ourselves walking on eggshells around him. But he does acknowledge that we do this and I know how much he values all of our friendships.

I often post here looking for advice and sometimes to vent. Neither one of them come here and my DM only comes rarely.

I am the first one to say if a game is 99% bad it is better to stop but in a lot of cases issues can be worked out if people are reasonable and really want to.

 

[MichaelSomething]

In short, they must unlearn what they have learned. I suggest carrying a muppet through a swamp to help with that

 

[TheAuldGrump]

In short, they must unlearn what they have learned. I suggest carrying a muppet through a swamp to help with that

Oh, really?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TY8T9iTUxc]Bog of Eternal Stench[/ame]


I'll see your Yoda and raise you a Sir Didymous!



The Auld Grump, a Hoggle if ever there was one.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Further to this, if the players are not too clinically paranoid, one thing that can help is to use Fate Points like those in Warhammer RPG or OGL Conan - the player has a "You won't die" resource they can spend at their option. It does not totally negate the possibility of death, but it means the player can choose for their PC not to die from a particular slip-up. If you're running a meatgrinder AP then Fate Points seem a particularly good idea to me; there is still a gamist challenge in seeing if you can make it to the end of the AP, but the Fate Points give a buffer.

In Conan you start with 3 and can gain more from special achievements, I also give them out if the PCs are arbitrarily 'screwed over by Fate' - starting an adventure washed up on a beach after a shipwreck or in jail after a cutscene, for instance.

A variant that I am grown fond of is Karma Points - a pool of poker chips, dice, what have you, sitting in a bowl in the middle of the table for everyone to see.

Like Fate Points they keep you alive, unlike Fate Points you can only spend them on other people. The person who spends the Point comes up with some mitigating circumstance, modified by the GM if necessary, and the character that it is spent on survives accordingly.

I know that is old-school style gaming, and I'm old...

However, when I DM, I tend to tell people up front that I'm not the type of DM that runs a lot of death traps, or any sort of trap, at the party. I rarely use them, I tell them.

(Of course, it makes when I do use them as a change of pace even more surprising... )

I have also grown fond of having death traps, retroactively. If the party finds a 10' pit trap without falling in then I tell them that they found a 30' trap with barbed spikes at the bottom. You get a killer rep without all that messy killing.

The Auld Grump

 

[pemerton]

The issue seems to be that he is role player with a capital R and that in his mind he assumes that the world is more like a real world where you often face things that you can't handle. It is one of the flaws of a level based game. Sometimes you just have to metagame a little an accept that this is a game and that one of the constraints is balanced CR threats.

<snip>

He is used to playing in homebrew games where the world is more organic and there are things you are meant to run from. In an adventure path everything is calculated per level so you don't face threats to hard to handle or over your pay grade.

To him metagaming is a dirty word.

It's not like you are telling him to read the adventure and use that knowledge in game. You aren't even really telling him to metagame. You're asking him to trust the DM and let loose.

I think the issue for this sort of player, is that trusting the GM isn't what s/he wants to do. Perhaps because of experiences with GMs using heavy-handed force in the past. If that's the case, saying "Rely on GM force, only this time it will be used for good rather than bad" may not work.

They are bad players. I know it's hard, but I think you and the DM need to accept that.

I think I can see how you say this, but I'm not quite as sure. I think they are sceptical about the GM's role (or at least, one aspect of it - framing scenes/situations). But I'm not sure that that makes them bad players.

His solution is simple

<snip>

He said upfront "Your characters are not going to die. If you lose HP so that you would have died, you will have an old serial-style cliffhanger escape instead. You will lose out on the rest of the encounter, you may limp back injured and it may leave its marks. You can get defeated, but you are not going to die."

I think this looks like a good potential solution because it takes the issue out of the GM's hands. Instead of having to trust that the GM will do the right thing, this sort of rule puts mechanics in place instead.

I would also add, having the NPC's go out of their way to be helpful for a while, just to show that the NPC's are not out to screw the party isn't a bad way to go either. Not that they have to bend over backwards, but, have the NPC's be nice as the default, rather than the exception. The bartender isn't surly, but friendly as is the waitress. That guard that you meet is more than willing to pass on some gossip. The merchant makes a mistake and gives you a deal. That sort of thing.

I think the DM needs to be pretty proactive here in order to break the cycle.

This seems pretty sensible too. It is the GM using force in a way that invites trust, rather than demands it.

 

[Black Omega]

One thing I'm really curious about. Player A, the hypersensativec, walking on eggshells one. What does the player want out of the game? I can't imagine he wants a game where he has to keep running to stay alive (but I could be wrong).

 

[S'mon]

I think their behavior makes perfect sense IF they are the sort of players who's real enjoyment is spoiling other peoples fun. Their are players like that. It can be very amusing to wreck something someone else cares about, gives a sense of power and control. Getting your roomate DM so upset that she's almost in tears...well they have power and control over her. She gave it to them.

Sounds like this is the DM that had the little skeletons that were animated via necromatic magic as treasure and one of the dill weed players smashed them. Here how this works. She cares about the game. She cares enough to put time into it to make it nice and fun. Some types of players like to hurt DM's that.

Hmm, this certainly puts things in a new perspective. I think you may have a point. It's possible they're deliberately sabotaging the DM.

Edit: Not necessarily consciously. People do a lot of nasty stuff without conscious intent. Refusing to engage can make them feel powerful, especially with an Adventure Path. I know that playing an AP right now (War of the Dead for SW) I look for the rails just so I can avoid them.

 

[hopeless]

Now thats cool!

Oh, really?

Bog of Eternal Stench


I'll see your Yoda and raise you a Sir Didymous!



The Auld Grump, a Hoggle if ever there was one.

Thanks for that!

now THAT is an example of a small Pc and his mount!