Dealing with paranoid players

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I am not saying that it is wrong to want some of the things I have complained about. And there have been times I have had a really good time playing in campaigns that are more high powered.

Okay, now I understand much better.

You really need a turn at the DM's table. You've got more experience, and could give some pointers by example. It would also let you play with more time between levels.

I'm in a similar rut sometimes. The only person who would run a game like I would want is ... myself. *Sigh* The players are enjoying my campaign though

The guy has a high Will save too? Seems like an overly defensive player I knew who would complain when anything bad happened to him. He would try to play OP characters, not to powergame, but because he couldn't stand losing.

 

[Virel]

To be fair, I'm almost certain I recall reading a sourcebook--maybe back in 2nd Ed days--that describes very similar behavior. That a thief could contact and get reasonable aid from the local underground (for a price, of course).

I'm pretty sure that there have been several fantasy novels that have worked similarly, where a thief main character gets help from the local thieves and smugglers, who often oppose the evil autocratic ruler.

In my opinion, it was not an unreasonable assumption.

Before one could assume that was the case for the current game, one would be prudent to use that nifty local lore skill one of the PC's had to find out if that was the case in this town. Besides, this sounded like a 3e game not a 2e. Quick check...so yes his choice was reckless & stupid IMHO but I've know a few thieves in real life so that idea seemed extra silly to me.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

You really need a turn at the DM's table. You've got more experience, and could give some pointers by example. It would also let you play with more time between levels.

I'd agree with this, and I'd also agree with pming's suggestion to try BECMI or a retro-clone. Or, at the very least, 3E heavily house-ruled to be more in the spirit of earlier editions.

It sounds like the OP's first 3E game was much more in the vein of earlier editions as I remember them (e.g. not taking for granted that you can just use your WBL to get wands of healing and making sure everybody is at 100% for every fight; also, slower leveling past level 6 or so).

BECMI and the like feature a flatter power curve than 3E -- not only do you advance to level 10 more slowly, but level 10 isn't as far above level 1 as it is in 3E. Also, IME, it features less space for powergaming, so there is generally less difference in ability between the PCs.

That is not to say it is a perfect system (well, family of systems with retro-clones), but I do feel it's a much better style for my preferences... and possibly for the OP's.

 

[Elf Witch]

To be fair, I'm almost certain I recall reading a sourcebook--maybe back in 2nd Ed days--that describes very similar behavior. That a thief could contact and get reasonable aid from the local underground (for a price, of course).

I'm pretty sure that there have been several fantasy novels that have worked similarly, where a thief main character gets help from the local thieves and smugglers, who often oppose the evil autocratic ruler.

In my opinion, it was not an unreasonable assumption.

Since the player in question has a ton more experience in the older editions that might have been his mind set. He may have played in several 3E games but he really does not grasp the rules very well.

I just today found out he took feats and somethings from Pathfinder. I don't think he or the DM realized that Pathfinder ups PC power some.

By whole issue with this is that he just assumed that a member of the thieves guild would do what he wanted and betray the mindflayer who we had evidence was a mover and shaker in the thieves guild.

 

[Elf Witch]

Okay, now I understand much better.

You really need a turn at the DM's table. You've got more experience, and could give some pointers by example. It would also let you play with more time between levels.

I'm in a similar rut sometimes. The only person who would run a game like I would want is ... myself. *Sigh* The players are enjoying my campaign though

The guy has a high Will save too? Seems like an overly defensive player I knew who would complain when anything bad happened to him. He would try to play OP characters, not to powergame, but because he couldn't stand losing.

I have been thinking this. I know I don't want to run 3E right now so I would need to figure out what I want to run maybe one of the clones of older editions. I am not sure the one player still has his older books.

Or I might try something completely different. I was thinking if I could get the others to go for it maybe run a Stargate SG 1 game or D20 modern with them as monster hunters. Something different to break some of the habits. That everyone is in.

 

[Hussar]

"Ups the power some"? Depending on the class, there's some very large power changes in classes between Pathfinder and 3e. Mixing and matching systems is often a really bad idea.

On Kn. Local - I get what you're saying, but, look at it from the other side. You're spending character resources for this. If it only pertains to a single location, say, one city, then it's pretty much useless. Why would I bother putting ranks there when I could put it in other Kn. skills and get a much better benefit?

Kn Local isn't really knowledge of one location, but, rather, knowledge of the location you are in. I may not live in New York city, but, I do know a fair bit about New York, from TV or whatnot. Same goes for lots of other cities. Again, it won't let me find the address of someone specific (Gather Information), nor does it prevent me from getting lost (Kn Geography or Wilderness Lore) but, it should tell me general information about whatever political situation is going on wherever I am. That sort of thing.

3e D&D has a nifty shorthand description of any town or city that outlines who the major names are and the economic situation in the town - buying limit, that sort of thing - that's what Kn Local should give you.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I have also grown fond of having death traps, retroactively. If the party finds a 10' pit trap without falling in then I tell them that they found a 30' trap with barbed spikes at the bottom. You get a killer rep without all that messy killing.

The Auld Grump

Actually did that in my last session... the party found a well-concealed secret entrance to the bad guy's lair. I had no traps or anything there, as it's in an abandoned area of the city, near an area with a bad reputation. Plus, they (the bad guys) were pretty tough overall... and, even the city guard avoided the area, except for the occasional daytime sweep to make sure no dead bodies were in the street or anything. Why trap something where you don't need a trap?

However, as soon as the party started to enter the secret tunnel, the guy playing the party rogue announced, "I'm checking for traps" and he rolled like a 19 on his d20, and with modifiers, it was super high.

"Yes, you find a cleverly concealed tripwire that the ranger was just about to stumble over..."

And, of course, they were relieved that they avoided both a deadly trap and setting off an alarm.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I have always given knowledge local with 5 ranks in it for free. The players pick where they want it to be. I also will allow them if its in their background to split those five ranks to include more than one local.

5 ranks gives a synergy bonus to gather information in those areas.

Sounds reasonable to me - give it to folks for their points of origin. )

[/quote]I know I am being really cranky right now about things in DnD. Part of it is a frustration of the limits of the game that I have started to see.

Things like characters going from 1 to 10 in four months. I know that one way to handle that is to lower the XP. But that is hard with an adventure path.

At one game a week I don't think that I have ever seen a group gain more than a level and some change a month. Something seems off there.

The fact that DnD campaigns have limits on how long you can play the character because of leveling. You can play at epic levels but it is a vastly different game.

For example most of the DnD games I have played in have only lasted around 18 months of regular play. My Shadowrun campaign has been going on with breaks since 1999 and I am still playing the same character.

Yech! Epic. Not been a problem for me, I do not mind having the characters retire. But it does sound like that combined with the rate the characters are leveling could be a problem.

The power escalation is a big one for me especially because with just so so role players it becomes hard to maintain a world that makes sense. The whole why should I care about the laws of the city they can't touch me mindset.

The difficulties for the DM to be able to properly challenge a party if there is different power levels going on between players.

Add that to my frustrations with the current game.

A player who plays rather paranoid when at 9 level the DM was having to up the challenges to what a 15 level would face just to deal with the one player which then would often kick the rest of us in the butt.

And when she didn't he would cake walk over it and of course he was taking out bad guys with one swing leaving the rest of us with nothing to do.

Is it wrong to want to be able to shine just once and while in the game?

There should be a chance for every character to shine, now and again. The skew caused by the powergamer is a bad one - I have seen a Runequest (2e) explode for much the same reason, combined with a GM who had folks start off at the equivalent of first level. Two were playing runepriests or runelords, and everyone else just kept dying.

It sounds like Mr. Powergamer needs to get a talking to. Either that or have him step into a sphere of annihilation.

There can be problems when you have a player who plays the system, not a character. Thankfully, not a problem that I have had. (Other problems, yes. Including a steampunk game where, in the course of eighteen level, there were exactly five battles, and one of those was fisticuffs.... In retrospect it is one of my favorite campaigns. At the time... Grrrrr.... )

The Auld Grump