Do grognards have to be jerks?

[JeffB]

I'm a little surprised that people were blindsided by talk about 3e's alleged unplayability. My recollection is that there had often been talk of that throughout 3e's publication run. And I don't think there's an edition of D&D that has been more criticized around here than the 3e pair.

I'm surprised as well- I gave up on it not long after 3.5 surfaced.

I think the deal is most of the internet posters who gave up on 3.x, moved on to different games (and different forums) and that was that. Many of us, myself included started posting a bit again when there was news of 4th edition, so thats prolly where the "blindside" effect comes from.

It was the same with the 2E folk- they complained and complained but eventually moved on. Had 3.x died instead of being resurrected as PF, and thus giving the the 3.x fans hope and continued support that is mostly compatible, those 3.x fans probably would have moved on as well. Instead now we have 2 large camps and they just keep butting heads. It's like 2 rival gangs fighting over the same territory.

Though I'd much rather see some real gang fights instead of all the overly verbose posts that essentially boil down to "my edition's elves are cooler than your edition's elves are" arguments around this place.

 

[Hussar]

Does anyone honestly think that WOTC could have predicted the backlash reactions? Really? Remember the explosion of nerd-rage when print Dungeon and Dragon were ended? People were comparing it to the death of loved ones. That came totally out of left field. Dungeon and Dragon were barely even talked about on En World before that. You might get a thread on a given issue, maybe, but that was about it. The AP's got a fair bit of loving, but, even then, it was never a really big deal.

Then came the 4e announcement, pretty much on the heels of a community that really wasn't all that interested in anything WOTC had to say and all those bad feelings just rose up again and stayed that way. Every time anyone from WOTC said anything, good or bad, it got dissected in dozen page threads of people looking for new and interesting ways to be offended.

I remember Scott Rouse being criticised for the marketing of 4e and his response (which I cannot find) being, "Hey, there are twenty threads on the top of Enworld right now, all of which are multiple pages long, all discussing 4e - what more marketing do you think I can do?" and basically throwing his hands up.

I mean, people are STILL talking about how they were offended by WOTC marketing. This was all several years ago. Dontcha think it's time to let things go?

 

[haakon1]

This was all several years ago. Dontcha think it's time to let things go?

When they cancel 4e, I will (mostly) stop my complaining about 4e.

It's not really WOTC as an entity I'm mad at or complain about, just some of their works. They've also done good things . . . they are kind to dogs and small children, I am told.

I can't promise to COMPLETELY stop dissing 4e even after it's cancelled, since my wrath for 2nd Edition still leaks out once in a while . . .

 

[haakon1]

Near the end of the 3.x cycle, there were a lot of threads here and elsewhere that talked about the difficulty of DMing at higher levels, people banning splats entirely, broken combinations, power disparity, etc.

Is it possible that you didn't really notice them because you were quite satisfied and therefore didn't read or participate in them?

...

I do like playing PF though, but we're only 5th level at this point.

I'm not aware of any version of D&D that "works" if you allow in the splatbooks and play it much beyond about 11th level. I just don't like "super" gaming or rules bloat at all.

My solution for every edition has been "Core Rules", and really the Core, no "PHB II" and so on -- plus only playing 1st to about 12th level.

Perhaps 4e or PF has fixed these issues -- I wouldn't know since I haven't tried them at high levels.

So part of why I didn't agree 3.5e was broken is that I worked around the brokenness . . .

 

[TheAuldGrump]

How come? It's the book that's at the pointy end of the stick, not 4e players. If anyone feels the books are not worth more than using as a hygienic supplement, why should I as a 4e player feel insulted?

I am not the book, after all.

/M

*Quickly hides pointy stick.*

Oh... umm... right.

*Shuffles sideways....*

Thank you for taking that well. As I said, I wouldn't want to see any book beyond an out of date Sear's catalog hanging on that nail.

Enjoy 4e, that is the whole point of playing games. Not my cuppa, but neither is Tunnels & Trolls or Rogue Trader.

The Auld Grump

 

[billd91]

Does anyone honestly think that WOTC could have predicted the backlash reactions? Really?

Yes, I think they could have predicted some level of backlash. In fact, I think they expected some over 4e, based on some comments on Mike Mearls' blog. People have been lashing out on the internet for decades - gamer comics have been lampooning it for decades - so it's not exactly a phenomenon coming out of nowhere. Not if you've been paying attention.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

EDIT: Sorry Umbran, I hadn't read your post yet. If you wish I can edit my post.

I DM 4e and play in a Pathfinder game. I like them both, they each have their own flavor of both awesomesauce and poopstink. No game is perfect for everyone.

I just watched the ad again and I have to admit, unless the 4e naysayers were posting the kind of stuff that the internet troll in the ad was representing, there really is no reason to get offended. They were NOT satirizing a reasonable discussion about the positives and negatives of 4e or 3.x, they were saying that the vitriol spewing nerd-rage rants (and there certainly were some) didn't matter to them.

They also satirized and poked fun at mindless 4e fanbois too.

It came across as selective criticism and looked like people searching for more reasons to be even angrier about the release of 4e and subsequent end of support to their game.

Were any role-playing farmers offended that one of their kind got pooped on? I didn't see any posts about that.

But I do recall posts where people compared the release of 4e to killing their dog and rape. I did not see any posts from the 4e camp that did a similar thing.

Part of the problem has to do with reading the WotC forums at the time. (Yes, I used to visit the WotC forums. ) There was a tendency on the boards for critics to be broadly painted as trolls by game designers as well as some of the fans that put the fan in fanatic. One such was on the subject of multiclassing, of all things.

I will say that for the most part the mods of the boards seemed pretty willing to delete posts by either side, but it was pretty heated, and not all of the deleted posts were all that inflammatory, and some were just questioning. It may be that they were trying to head off flame storms before they began, but the effect was an apparent stifling of any questioning of what WotC was doing.

So, some folks, myself included, made the not exactly great leap that the stupid ad was targeting all critics, not just the actual trolls, because the mods and designers seemed to be doing exactly that on the official WotC boards.

That it was not just the nerd rants, but also all criticism.

In all, adding the silly ad was pouring oil on troubled waters, then lighting it on fire. In retrospect it was an attempt to be funny. At the time... not so much.

If you are enjoying both games then good for you - I suspect that you fall into the range between the two warring camps, a territory that I think is larger than the other two combined.

*EDIT* I don't think that I have ever accused WotC of much more than blind arrogance. But I'll hide my dog, just in case.... (Actually, I just wanted to note that I have removed part of the subject post as offensive beyond the call of, ummm, duty.)

The Auld Grump, who doesn't even have a dog.

 

[Mournblade94]

I don't go to the Pathfinder boards/threads either, but here's the rub: When is there enough individuals to call it a trend? Last night I gamed at a FLGS and a couple of people came up and asked if we were playing 4E. I said yes we were and one piped in with a refuse-eating grin with 'Oh, that's the version that's too restrictive so I don't like it' while looking for backup from store personel as if he was afraid I was going to turn him in to a oxyclean grease spot.

Now, you can say these two were just jerks, but this has happened numerous times there. There was a Pathfinder table playing next to us last year and they never had people approach them like that. Their DM and her husband were really cool but a couple of their players looked at us like we were forcing kittens to smoke cheap, unfiltered menthols.

There's a certain mentality of those who feel "betrayed" by an edition change that simply isn't there in those who embrace the new one. That's a simple, psychological phenomenon. Does that mean that all responses are appropriate if done in like manner? No. It's a viscious circle to be sure.

Where does that cycle end? I don't know. Saying both sides have had bad responses is quite accurate but claiming both are equally responsible for starting it is not.

So by this logic I am to assume that most of the edition war hate occurs on the 4e avenger side. Everytime there is a mention about how much of the market share Paizo has aquired, 4e avengers come out of the woodwork to say that cannot possibly be true. CLEARLY they are the ones responsible for the edition war!

No really, it is plain SILLY to say one side is more responsible than the other. There simply is no correlation. You would be hard pressed to find one.

Your story can be repeated on my side as well. It did not happen last time I was running a game but it happened the previous time I was running pathfinder instead of encounters.

See how that pans out! When you are the only gamemaster in the store on ENCOUNTERS night. Like I was. I will not run 4e. The backlash to me running pathfinder instead was pretty horrific. "but its encounters night!" Me: "That is very nice, but I don't run 4e. If you want to play in a game here is the first part of carrion crown. You'll have fun."

The players looking forward to encounters decried my decision to run the game I wanted to play. Pathfinder ran that night. 4e did not. The 4e players were not willing to give it a shot, and though they did not voice their displeasure to me directly, I overheard, and told them to either run encounters themselves, or stuff it. Stop chasing people away from my game.

Am I too assume this is normal behavior of 4e players? According to the argument you are making, yes I should.

No. I know plenty of 4e players. Most of them are happy to play in my game or have me play in theirs and leave it at that, while talking about how cool the THOR movie was.

You see a correlation because simply it is what you are exposed to. No correlation exists.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

So by this logic I am to assume that most of the edition war hate occurs on the 4e avenger side. Everytime there is a mention about how much of the market share Paizo has aquired, 4e avengers come out of the woodwork to say that cannot possibly be true. CLEARLY they are the ones responsible for the edition war!

No really, it is plain SILLY to say one side is more responsible than the other. There simply is no correlation. You would be hard pressed to find one.

Your story can be repeated on my side as well. It did not happen last time I was running a game but it happened the previous time I was running pathfinder instead of encounters.

See how that pans out! When you are the only gamemaster in the store on ENCOUNTERS night. Like I was. I will not run 4e. The backlash to me running pathfinder instead was pretty horrific. "but its encounters night!" Me: "That is very nice, but I don't run 4e. If you want to play in a game here is the first part of carrion crown. You'll have fun."

The players looking forward to encounters decried my decision to run the game I wanted to play. Pathfinder ran that night. 4e did not. The 4e players were not willing to give it a shot, and though they did not voice their displeasure to me directly, I overheard, and told them to either run encounters themselves, or stuff it. Stop chasing people away from my game.

Am I too assume this is normal behavior of 4e players? According to the argument you are making, yes I should.

No. I know plenty of 4e players. Most of them are happy to play in my game or have me play in theirs and leave it at that, while talking about how cool the THOR movie was.

You see a correlation because simply it is what you are exposed to. No correlation exists.

I know of at least one store that stopped running Encounters because of the behavior of of some players. Not just game-crapping, I think that there was also some shoplifting, definitely a lot of mess making, etc., and not enough profit to be worth the trouble.

Most players, in Encounters or elsewhere, are fine - I doubt that the problem was more than two or three people, but those few ruined it for everybody, not just Pathfinder/3.X folks.

I have not seen anything similar with Pathfinder, but Pathfinder doesn't have anything like Encounters. If there were... I dunno, outside of the game that I run every other Saturday most of the Pathfinder players that I have met have been older.

But I don't remember acting like that when I was a teen, playing D&D for the first time. I haven't seen that behavior at any other RPG. Maybe the semi-competitive nature of Encounters? I don't see something like Encounters being done for Pathfinder anyway, but I suspect that it was more of an Encounters thing than a 4e thing.

Part of it might have been the cramped space.

Either way, those kids were jerks. If they were playing Pathfinder, then I suspect that they would still be jerks.

The Auld Grump, same Grognard heavy game store.

 

[Hussar]

Yes, I think they could have predicted some level of backlash. In fact, I think they expected some over 4e, based on some comments on Mike Mearls' blog. People have been lashing out on the internet for decades - gamer comics have been lampooning it for decades - so it's not exactly a phenomenon coming out of nowhere. Not if you've been paying attention.

Some level sure. No problem. That would be 100% expected.

The level of vitriol that exploded all over every online venue? I'm thinking not.