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Could Wizards ACTUALLY make MOST people happy with a new edition?

In purist-for-system simulationism, the focus is consistency of ingame causal logic. Rolemaster, Runequest, Classic Traveller, and big chunks (but not all) of 3E are built to with this priority in mind. Realism is a factor here, although not the only factor, because the real world is our main inspiration for what counts as coherent causation.

In high concept simulationism, the focus is on consistency and coherence of the relevant genre tropes and story elements. Call of Cthulhu and Pendragon are great examples of this.
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Cthulhu provides a good example here, I think. As with many pulp or pulp-ish stories (eg Indiana Jones, Tintin), for CoC to work we have to completely ignore economic and institutional questions like "Where do these guys get their money?", "What reasearch institution is paying for all their non-teaching time?", "Why do they never have to meet deadlines for the submission of copy even though it says 'journalist' at the top of the character sheet?" etc.
I don't see Call of Cthulhu as the best poster boy of high concept simulationism.

In CoC, there generally can be a plausible reason for why the journalist doesn't make his deadlines: he's freelance, he's on leave on absence, he decided that there are more important things in life than his career after seeing a Shoggoth (or conversely, he tries to keep his job as denial/coping mechanism). The players don't necessarily have to explore these reasons, they just assume it's there. Depending how far the average person digs, there IS a good reason for it. Thus internal consistency is more or less intact.

I'd argue that a PC who witnesses the near end of the world, comes out completely unscathed sanity-wise, and still makes his journalism deadline as if everything was normal is actually more high-concept than anything else, much like the superhero genre.

A player who roleplays a selfish coward who nevertheless ventures into the cult lair to save a stranger's life is also high concept IMO.

I agree that CoC can often be high concept but not exactly for the reasons I think you implied. Just like 3E is a mix of purist and high concept tropes.
 

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Gandalf and Elric are not immune to physical harm from "low level" creatures - they simply don't take any because that is not part of the story. There really aren't any "low level" creatures in the stories, in fact. Some creatures and characters have weaknesses or lack the strengths that others possess, but "level" per se is not a concept really supported by anything in the books.
How about the battle where Legolas and Gimli compete for the number of orc kills and don't seem to fear death? That feels like high-level PCs fighting low-level monsters.
 

IMO, no matter what WotC does, there is going to be someone that remains peeved, or becomes peeved by the changes made in whatever the newest iteration of the game may be.

Every person has their own personal preference as to what they like and how they thing D&D should play, and there are a lot of players out there.

In the end I think WotC may end up making a game favorable to a wide audience, but if they think they'll be able to pull off another Golden Age of Dungeons and Dragons, I think that ship has probably sailed.
 

I'm wanting any system for Simulationist-focussed play to model an internally-consistent world and, if it is attempting to model any specific genre, one that models the genre world, not attempts to force the genre stories to happen.

This relates to the "impossible thing before breakfast" that Edwards brings up. What you seem to be asking for here is for genre stories to be generated by simulating the setting where those stories took place. That can't work. Many things were assumed to have happened (in the imaginary world) where the stories were set. "The Story" was presumed, in the conceit necessary for good fiction, to have been simply one particularly interesting series of events that happened there. By trying to "force the luck" to generate such supposedly unusual events, we break the world model.

To paraphrase Charles Tilly in his excellent book "Why?", "The Truth is Not a Story". Stories are simply ways we arrange sets of information that seem to us to be extraordinary or noteworthy. If we try to generate a story by defining the way the world works, we are doomed to failure - which is why successful Narrativist supporting games don't model world physics (as a general rule).
I liked this post (but can't XP you yet).

Are you suggesting, here, that high concept simulationism is inherently unstable as a design goal, because the mechanics that are introudced to support the creation of genre stories (eg Pendagon passions etc) are in danger, if taken literally, of pushing the world into incoherence?

Edwards doesn't go quite that far in his Right to Dream essay, but he does seem to suggest that high concept design is ripe for dysfunctional play, as the GM uses force to keep the "story" on track. You seem to be raising the prospect of the GM also having to use force to keep the gameworld on track.

My own feeling is that good high concept design will try and dodge these issues by using the mechanics to shift focus, and to subordinate the potential sites of breakdown so they don't emerge in play (as I suggested upthread).

In CoC, there generally can be a plausible reason for why the journalist doesn't make his deadlines: he's freelance, he's on leave on absence, he decided that there are more important things in life than his career after seeing a Shoggoth (or conversely, he tries to keep his job as denial/coping mechanism). The players don't necessarily have to explore these reasons, they just assume it's there. Depending how far the average person digs, there IS a good reason for it. Thus internal consistency is more or less intact.
My feeling is that the more the players try to explore this issue, the more pressure they will put on that consistency. So it's fairly important that they do just assume that it is there.

A similar issue in a simulationist LotR game would surround the economy of the Shire. As presented in the books, it (i) is close to autarkic in its economic arrangements, (ii) has a pretty modest population, but (iii) has a standard of living comparable at least to late 18th century Britain. This is more-or-less impossible, as far as realworld economic history is concerned. But nothing in the LotR suggests that there is some non-realworld factor in play to explain the economic viability of the Shire. Rather, the reader is not meant to think about it too much. It's a background, that provides colour to the real stuff.

I see the role of PC profession in CoC as similar - it provides colour, we assume it makes sense without looking at it too hard, and get on with playing the game.

Purist-for-sim players who care about economics will break the LotR game, as the Shire's economy crumbles under the weight of their exploration. They will break CoC too, I think, as they start to investigate the economic and institutional factors that the game itself doesn't support and tends to assume will not be engaged with.

That's not a criticism of CoC as a game. Nor of the putative LotR game. Any more than it's a criticism of LotR itself, or Tintin (the "boy reporter" who never takes notes, never interviews anyone, and never files a story!).

I think this is a good summary of some of these features of high-concept supporting mechanics:

At first glance, these games might look like additions to or specifications of the Purist for System design, mainly through plugging in a fixed Setting. However, I think that impression isn't accurate . . . things which aren't relevant to the Explorative focus are often summarized and not "System'ed" with great rigor. When done well, such that the remaining, emphasized elements clearly provide a sort of "what to do" feel, this creates an extremely playable, accessible game text. . . when it's done badly, resolutions are rife with breakpoints and GM-fiat punts . . .​
 

My feeling is that the more the players try to explore this issue, the more pressure they will put on that consistency. So it's fairly important that they do just assume that it is there.
That's possible, but any exploration of any fictional story will put pressure on consistency. By that reasoning, no medium is purist-for-system because anything might break under enough scrutiny. Hell, even non-fiction documentaries can break under scrutiny.

Perhaps, I'm not sure, the relevant question is *why* do they just assume it is there? If they assume it's there, because they assume there's a plausible reason somewhere somehow, then I think that's more purist. If they assume it's there, because they're afraid to look too hard and break consistency, then it's more high concept. That's my guess anyway.
 

You know, it's been a while since I managed to find a D&D game of any flavor. Letely I've been browseing through the books for both 4e and 3e and I realized something.

They are not intended to tell the same kind of stories.

The early editions of D&D always had a sort of wiggle room in how things were set up. You could have your barbarian carving his way through hordes of mooks with nothing but a loincloth and a giant stone spork, and you could have the plucky street thief who found the ring of invisibility and snuck into the palace to win the princeses heart.

Of course in play these collided to produce invisible barbarians armoured like a WWII battleship.

4e ditches the plucky, lucky street urchin. If you want to sneak into the palace you have to do it on your own, through guile, wit and mad ninja skillz. There simply are no rings that will make you invisible for that long.

I can see merit to this approach, honestly. I think I also see why 4e doesn't feel like D&D to me anymore. It's ditched the fiction which lay behind so much of the early games. No more Frodo and the ring of doom, no more Elric and Stormbringer, no more Alladin and the magic lamp.

In truth these events almost never happened in play. But they informed the world. They happened in the back ground and you heard about them from NPCs, or read about them in history. And you could daydream about them while flipping through the books.

In 4e the focus is squarely on the characters rather than on what loot they have. But there is a price that has been paid.
 

How about the battle where Legolas and Gimli compete for the number of orc kills and don't seem to fear death? That feels like high-level PCs fighting low-level monsters.
I can see how you might infer that, but I think seasoned warriors have exchanged similar banter even in real world history (where, I assume you will agree, 'high level characters' don't actually exist). It is done with the (supressed) knowledge that both their lives are actually on the line; it almost becomes a 'macho' way of saying "boy, I'm glad to see you're still alive!"

Are you suggesting, here, that high concept simulationism is inherently unstable as a design goal, because the mechanics that are introudced to support the creation of genre stories (eg Pendagon passions etc) are in danger, if taken literally, of pushing the world into incoherence?
I'm not really saying 'high concept' itself is unstable, just trying to distinguish what I think are stable/coherent expressions of it from what aren't. Pendragon passions, for example, are a perfectly viable part of an Arthurian world setting. Sure, they are inspired by the stories, but a world in which such things exist (and affect the outcome of events as they do in the game) seems to me to be a perfectly viable world.

Playing Pendragon, you don't necessarily get stories that match those of Malory or deTroyes, but you get characters that seem as if they might have fitted into such stories. By modelling the world of Arthur and the round Table, rather than by trying to create the characters and stories that they relate, specifically, I think Pendragon succeeds in "emulating the genre".

Players trying to "poke about" in Pendragon and "try stuff" will (usually, IMO) not break the setting, but will generate stories that, though possibly a bit rambling and incoherent as stories, fit into the genre/setting quite well. In a way that setting up Lancelot et al as "high level fighters" simply wouldn't.
 

My point is that (1) I don't think "simulating these stories" is what D&D has ever tried to do, even though it was inspired by the tales and the worlds they are set in, and (2) if simulating these stories is what D&D is trying to do, then it fails catastrophically at doing so.

(1) I'm not necessarily stating what the intentions were behind the design of D&D... what I am moreso talking about is the particular playstyle I feel the rules push for.

(2) I respect your opinion, but just as pemerton gets a totally different playstyle from his ecxperiences with 4e than I have witnessed in gameday, encounters, Chris Perkins podcasts, etc. I have to disagree with this statement.

Gandalf and Elric are not immune to physical harm from "low level" creatures - they simply don't take any because that is not part of the story. There really aren't any "low level" creatures in the stories, in fact. Some creatures and characters have weaknesses or lack the strengths that others possess, but "level" per se is not a concept really supported by anything in the books.

I would beg to differ, there are definitley low-level creatures (reavers, bandits, gollum, Orcs, etc.) vs. high-level creatures (Chaos Gods, Bellbane the Mist Giant, Balrog, Nazghul, etc.) in the Elric stories, Fafhrd and The Gray Mouser, LotR, etc....

Because their world does not work the way the D&D world(s) work. If they went out to commit genocide, they might die. Of course, they would not, if the story the author was telling demanded that they did not, but as far as their world was concerned that would be down to luck (or maybe destiny), rather than the "physics" of the world.

I disagree here as well. Elric, Corum, Legolas, Conan, Gandalf, Fafhrd, The Gray Mouser, etc. don't die... because they are superior to the average man... just as adventurers are a cut (or more depending on level) above the average man. at a certain point against certain opponents they don't ever suffer wounds in battles... not a single scratch... just like D&D.

If Gandalf, having shown he can defeat a Balrog, decided (in a fit of hubris) to go out and slay them all, you can bet that no good would come of it. And nothing in the "physics" of Middle Earth would make Gandalf's demise (and likely disgrace) in the least unlikely, barring the character of Gandalf himself being unlikely to draw erroneous conclusions about his own inviolability.

We don't know what would happen if Gandalf did this...because he never does, because this genre doesn't support that trope... Just like D&D. The thing is you've created your own basis that is not supported with any evidence for how these worlds should work.

No, I'm wanting any system for Simulationist-focussed play to model an internally-consistent world and, if it is attempting to model any specific genre, one that models the genre world, not attempts to force the genre stories to happen.

You do realize that most S&S stories never had a consistent world to begin with? How do you reconcile that fact with your need for a consistent world in games that simulate worlds that aren't consistent?

When you examine the Young Kingdoms, The Hyborian Age, John Carter's Mars, etc. they aren't internally-consistent, at least as far as the original pulp stories go. The settings of the original stories have tons of incosistencies throughout them.


The characters in these sources do not go out to deal with lesser threats, whether paid to or not, because there is an actual cost to doing so. They would, in the world they inhabit, actually be at risk. Their lives and talents are simply far better risked in tackling the bigger, more important threats. The fact that they don't fall to "lesser threats" is down to the intent of the storyteller, not to the nature of the world they inhabit. Modelling the world they inhabit would support simulationist play; trying to model the story they took part in would not (at least, not successfully).

I beg to differ. Again taking Elric... as emperor of the Bright Isles he participates in an attack on raiders who planned to attack his homeland (certainly a "lesser" threat) and he kills the ones he fights without suffering a single wound. This is akin to the world that 3e D&D simulates. Higher level adventurers are at a certain point just not threatened by lower level opponents.

You seem to be arguing that it is a bad simulation because it doesn't model your own rules for how these make believe worlds should work. the problem is that your rules go against all the lore and examples (the stories) we have of how things work on these worlds. again you are creating some arbitrary measure of the way things in these worlds should happen, when you have no proof that your ideas of how or why these things work are true.

I highlighted the phrase above because I think there is a confusion, here. D&D was inspired by these stories; it was wisely enough drawn, however, not to attempt to 'simulate' them, nor even the worlds they were held to take place in.

Well I didnt design D&D so I will hold of making abolute statements about the intentions of those who did. What I will say is that the rules of 3e/3.5/PF seem to simulate the tropes and conceits of S&S fiction and to a lesser extent High Fantasy stories.

Insignificant reward, perhaps, but also insignificant cost. A few 12th level characters could eradicate an orc village (say) in 2E in, what, a day? Less? With no significant risk at all.

And Elric with Stormbringer could as well... and not suffer a single hit... I guess I'm not seeing your point here.
 

That's possible, but any exploration of any fictional story will put pressure on consistency. By that reasoning, no medium is purist-for-system because anything might break under enough scrutiny. Hell, even non-fiction documentaries can break under scrutiny.

Honestly, this is where the reasoning of pemerton and Balesir is breaking down for me... if you have to simulate an internally consistent world based on inconsistent things... it seems impossible to have a simulationist game... this is why I keep stressing the difference between realism vs. simulationism because I feel they are conflating the two.
 

I can see how you might infer that, but I think seasoned warriors have exchanged similar banter even in real world history (where, I assume you will agree, 'high level characters' don't actually exist). It is done with the (supressed) knowledge that both their lives are actually on the line; it almost becomes a 'macho' way of saying "boy, I'm glad to see you're still alive!"
Not when the body count is 41 vs 42. That body count strongly implies the seasoned warriors are inherently better (ie higher level) than their enemies.
 

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