Mighty Crossbows?

[RithTheAwakener]

I am considering introducing Mighty versions of Crossbows into my current PF game. It seems like a logical counterpart to the Mighty Bows that are already in existence, and would conceptually work just as well with increasing the draw power on a crossbow.

Has anyone house-ruled these Mighty Crossbows into their games? How did it turn out? Is there a specific reason why these were not included in the Core book?

Thanks!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Would it be martial, like bows? Would you be penalized for below 10 str, like you are with bows? Would you be unable to fire them while prone, like bows? Would it be set to a specific draw strength that caps your str bonus to damage but also penalizes you if your str goes below that amount, like bows?

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I have not used them in my games, mostly because no one is foolish enough to use a crossbow. I think that they would be just fine, given that crossbows are so sub-par, anyway.

 

[Systole]

Would it be martial, like bows? Would you be penalized for below 10 str, like you are with bows? Would you be unable to fire them while prone, like bows? Would it be set to a specific draw strength that caps your str bonus to damage but also penalizes you if your str goes below that amount, like bows?

Would it be martial, like bows? Would you be unable to fire them while prone, like bows?

Point and shoot dynamic remains the same. They'd still be simple weapons that could be fired prone.


Would it be set to a specific draw strength that caps your str bonus to damage but also penalizes you if your str goes below that amount, like bows? Would you be penalized for below 10 str, like you are with bows?

Yes, they'd have a set draw strength. In regards to cocking them, I can see two schools of thought.
(1) Mighty crossbows couldn't be cocked by someone with below the minimum strength, period.
(2) Cocking a crossbow requires a strength check at 10 + the modifier. You can always take 10 on this check. Therefore, you can always cock a crossbow for which you equal or exceed the modifier, but it's hit-or-miss if you're too weak for it.

Personally, I prefer option 2.


The above are my opinions on how to balance mighty crossbows. They've got nothing to do with actual rules.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I have not used them in my games, mostly because no one is foolish enough to use a crossbow. I think that they would be just fine, given that crossbows are so sub-par, anyway.

They're not subpar. Whole classes are only proficient with crossbows, not bows. And a single feat (Rapid Reload) makes light crossbows equal to if not better (shorter range and no option for str to damage vs. better crit, fire while prone, can fire one handed and even dual wield two, and no penalty for low str or hassles of being hit with a str penalty/damage) than a longbow. If you have two feats to spare (Rapid Reload and Crossbow Master), a Heavy Crossbow is just plain better than a composite longbow.

 

[tylermalan]

They're not subpar. Whole classes are only proficient with crossbows, not bows. And a single feat (Rapid Reload) makes light crossbows equal to if not better (shorter range and no option for str to damage vs. better crit, fire while prone, can fire one handed and even dual wield two, and no penalty for low str or hassles of being hit with a str penalty/damage) than a longbow. If you have two feats to spare (Rapid Reload and Crossbow Master), a Heavy Crossbow is just plain better than a composite longbow.

Yeah, but add to that the fact that you have to have OTHER ranged combat feats to be decent with ranged combat at all, and those two extra feats become quite the requirement. When will you take those two crossbow feats? Before or after Point Blank Shot/Rapid Shot? I'm not saying that makes crossbows WORSE than bows, assuming you have all the requisite feats for either, but what class has "feats to spare" other than a fighter? It certainly makes crossbows less attractive for most characters (especially the classes that are only proficient with crossbows and not bows, which tend to be the classes with no feats to spare).

 

[SteelDraco]

I agree that crossbows are mechanically inferior to a longbow, and I can see the appeal of a mighty crossbow. I like the idea of a Str check to cock a bow you couldn't normally use, only because it's going to be a rare case anyway. If it was every turn it wouldn't be a good mechanic.

Personally, I think the feats that let you get a full attack with a crossbow are going the wrong way with it. I'd put in mechanical support for the idea that a single bolt is more damaging or better at penetrating armor than a flurry of faster-but-weaker arrows. I could see feats that give a bonus to attacks against targets with armor bonuses to represent armor penetration, bull rushing with crossbow bolts, maybe even a Cleave-like feat where the bolt goes through one target and into another. Then you could have different ranged character builds that are both viable but different instead of trying to replicate a longbow's full attack. As it stands right now, a ranged character that doesn't use a longbow has to spend several feats just to catch up.

It's possible i've been playing a lot of Dragon Age 2 lately and really like Varric, so I might be somewhat biased.

 

[Mattrex]

I house-ruled that crossbows apply the wielder's Dex bonus as a damage bonus in the same way that bows apply Str bonuses. This goes some way toward reducing the technical inferiority of crossbows.

 

[Sylrae]

I'd think If you're going to add a stat to bows, it should be WIS, since WIS is the perception stat, and best represents aiming.

Just my 2 copper though.

 

[RithTheAwakener]

I agree that crossbows are mechanically inferior to a longbow, and I can see the appeal of a mighty crossbow. I like the idea of a Str check to cock a bow you couldn't normally use, only because it's going to be a rare case anyway. If it was every turn it wouldn't be a good mechanic.

Personally, I think the feats that let you get a full attack with a crossbow are going the wrong way with it. I'd put in mechanical support for the idea that a single bolt is more damaging or better at penetrating armor than a flurry of faster-but-weaker arrows. I could see feats that give a bonus to attacks against targets with armor bonuses to represent armor penetration, bull rushing with crossbow bolts, maybe even a Cleave-like feat where the bolt goes through one target and into another. Then you could have different ranged character builds that are both viable but different instead of trying to replicate a longbow's full attack. As it stands right now, a ranged character that doesn't use a longbow has to spend several feats just to catch up.

I heartily agree with that. It would be nice to have a few different ranged feats to alter the crossbow abilities instead of just another rapid-fire ranged weapon. Maybe a new string of feats are in order..

I'd think If you're going to add a stat to bows, it should be WIS, since WIS is the perception stat, and best represents aiming.

This came about after a player complained about Focused Shot, which adds +Int to damage for a standard action crossbow shot. I like the idea of a different stat to damage (Int) rather than Str. I am considering allowing Focused Shot to just add Int to all crossbow bolt damage, but that would be a very loaded feat.

I like the idea of a Strength check to cock the crossbow if you do not meet the required Strength limit. I'd like to get crossbows to become a viable option, and that currently only seems feasible if you have a plethora of feats to drop into it.