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Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder sales

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To me it says a great deal that the goal posts of the debate have been moved this far.

No one would have seriously suggested anything remotely like this at any point during 3E.

The one time blip of WoD peaking over D&D was seen as a huge event.

Three years ago we were being assured that PF faced certain rapid decline.

I agree.

It was only a year ago that I was somewhat derided for saying it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Paizo had cornered between 25 and 40% of the rpg market. That was then. I suspect the same observation now would bring very little real argument.
 

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I don't think anyone at all is debating whether or not D&D has been the historical best seller RPG over the last decade. The only thing being debated is whether Pathfinder has recently (in the last few quarters) caught up to and perhaps surpassed D&D in sales. For that we need to look at current data and not rely on historical data.

Look, I'll give you a real world example from my work. I work with oceanographic and meteorologic data to compute drifts of objects at sea (it's a search and rescue application). We consider both long term background climatic data (like your decade of facts on D&D's sales) but more useful than that is real time data. Knowing that on average over the past 10 years current flowed two knots north in this particular area is a good fallback, but if we have ship observations that say otherwise, or we have model data from an oceanographic model we will use that instead because it is closer what is really going on at this particular moment in time. The best data we can get is if we send an aircraft or vessel out to deploy a buoy that transmits position data (from which can derive surface current data). If we were to fall back to the climatic data if we had closer to real time data we would be doing a disservice to the public and be putting lives at risk. In some cases we are forced to fall back to climatic data if we are missing any other data, but even then we usually modify that data based on modeled or observed winds for which we have really good coverage (the wind drag effect on water will produce a noticeable surface current).

So what's the point? The point is that by rejecting this near real time data (Amazon, ICv2, etc) you are simply falling back to the historical norm which does not necessarily represent what is really going on on the ground at this particular time. You're falling back to an even worse quality of data than the data that you're criticizing.




Okay, this month we have both Pathfinder and 4E releases (Ultimate Combat and the Neverwinter campaign setting. If you look at the Amazon.com rankings, Pathfinder has an overall book rank somewhere close to 500 (it's 665 today - it was under 500 a few days ago). If you look at the Neverwinter book, it has an overall book rating of 2000+. A few days ago I believe it was somewhere between 1700 and 1800.

The rankings have been pretty consistent over a period of days. So we can clearly say that as far as the Amazon channel goes, Pathfinder has been outselling the most recent 4E book over the past week or so. That is real data. Can we extrapolate that to mean that Pathfinder is more popular than D&D? Probably not. However we can probably expect that sales in other book channels are probably similar especially if you work in other data like the recent ICv2 data over the past few quarters.

It seems to me that what you're doing is simply rejecting data that doesn't match your view of how things should be because it doesn't match the long term trend line. You are favoring longer term data over more recent short term data which is a bad way to model what is going on right now.

Here is my issue: That buoy (and other scientific instrumentations) is MAGNITUDES more accurate than the sales data. If I had data to that precision, it would satisfy my margin of uncertainty. There is no publicly available data with a comparable accuracy.

The reason that sales data is being rejected is different than the reasons we would reject data from buoys (I could go on a rant about politicians not liking temperature data but I won't). When your agency gets that Position data, it must evaluate and compensate for that data because they know and trust the source.

If I was in some strange place where I had to make a life or death decision based on whether or not Pathdinder was outselling D&D, the data I have available does not let me do anything but make a broad speculation. I could not make a decision with confidence.

If a boat was out in the coast (I used to do High Frequency direction finding with the US NAVY when I was in, so pleased to meet you:), and I used the position buoys to locate a vessel, I can be reasonably certain a simple search in that area would yield a vessel. If it did not I could conclude something bad happened.

If my bouys were of the icv2 variety, I would have an area, and merely be able to say: OK boys lets search there first, its our best BET. It would however be inconclusive if we could not find the boat.
 

I'm having a lot of fun and just calling it like I see it. No problem Whatsoever.

I agree with calling it how you see it. However, I am identifying several examples where people are mistaking data integrity.

To me this is a much larger issue. A significant part of my career is data usage, and spreading scientific literacy. I beleive Many of our problems with the general populace trusting science is misuse of data, and not evaluating it properly. Simply people do not know what good is good information.

You BryonD realize that you are calling it how you see it, like I am doing. There are a significant amount of others however that are calling it conclusive. THAT is what I have a problem with.
 


I'm not going to argue with you.

Then don't.

I know the evidence, I know I'm not applying a double standard,

Ever heard of the word cognitive bias? If you want to avoid cognitive biases, one of the best ways is to pull out the evidence and examine it with someone with a different viewpoint. Almost as good is pulling out the evidence and taking a good look at, because that will frequently show how much you believe that's based on rumor and hearsay.

Obviously I'm not going to convince you that the evidence you have is inadequate, so the last page or so has been

...not about whether this evidence is inadequate. It's been about whether there's any evidence that D&D is number 1 this quarter, or do we have to conclude that we don't know whether D&D or Pathfinder is #1.

Has there been any evidence about sales in the RPG market since Pathfinder was released that is better than the ICv2 data? I don't think any data that's two years old could be better, more accurate about current sales, then the ICv2 and Amazon data.

Because you seem to be missing it: the question is did Pathfinder sell more physical books than D&D 4 this last quarter. My answer is if you don't trust the ICv2 data, you're left with no evidence at all one way or the other. Years-old data does not give more reliable information on the short-term fluctuations in the sales market then recent surveys.
 

I agree with calling it how you see it. However, I am identifying several examples where people are mistaking data integrity.

To me this is a much larger issue. A significant part of my career is data usage, and spreading scientific literacy. I beleive Many of our problems with the general populace trusting science is misuse of data, and not evaluating it properly. Simply people do not know what good is good information.

You BryonD realize that you are calling it how you see it, like I am doing. There are a significant amount of others however that are calling it conclusive. THAT is what I have a problem with.
shrug

I guess I could go with the "saying the data is meaningless is every bit as bad" reply

But I'll go with the "spreading sceintific literacy isn't advanced by getting hung up on the posts of nameless people on a game web site" reply.

I am an engineer. But beyond that I work for an international consulting firm and I actually personally manage a global initative to coordinate sharing of techincal knowledge and understanding of thousands of professionals. (Statistics is one of the many focus areas) Trust me, I get your point and feel for you. But, seriously, my work is serious. This isn't the same at all.
 


To me it says a great deal that the goal posts of the debate have been moved this far.

No one would have seriously suggested anything remotely like this at any point during 3E.

The one time blip of WoD peaking over D&D was seen as a huge event.

Three years ago we were being assured that PF faced certain rapid decline.

Now the debate is down to a corner of demanding that no rational person can can observe valuable information thats actually exists between the extremes of meaningless random noise and certainty to three decimal places.
"The goal posts have shifted"? I disagree. It's not as if Pathfinder has been king all this time and we're only slowly admitting it. Pathfinder sales have grown. That doesn't mean the goal posts moved, it means the ball did.

And "certainty to three decimal places" is a maybe just a hyperbolic. It's not as though we have complete sales data and are questioning it's accuracy down to the decimal point. We're looking at print sales data for two companies that have non-print sales as major sources of revenue, and saying maybe it isn't the whole picture. That's not exactly unreasonable.
 

So in seeing this thread develop, my question is what standard are we using for Pathfinder sales status? If it's ICv2, and we see that WotC assumes that number one slot next quarter (as it was the quarter before this), is issue put to rest? How about Amazon sales? I mean, in all seriousness, what does it take?

From what I've seen, there's no evidence that will be forthcoming that will change people's minds, since they're seeing what they want to see, but you never know.
 

"The goal posts have shifted"? I disagree. It's not as if Pathfinder has been king all this time and we're only slowly admitting it. Pathfinder sales have grown. That doesn't mean the goal posts moved, it means the ball did.
The story at the time was that the only reason 3E/PF had any attention was because people were still playing their 3E games and the natural progression would move to the next edition. If the goal posts have not moved then that is still the goal. It is not.

And "certainty to three decimal places" is a maybe just a hyperbolic. It's not as though we have complete sales data and are questioning it's accuracy down to the decimal point. We're looking at print sales data for two companies that have non-print sales as major sources of revenue, and saying maybe it isn't the whole picture. That's not exactly unreasonable.
We can have any level of data short of getting into private sales books and the reply of "not enough" can (and apparently will be) floated out.

If you want to talk non-print, that's fine. And as I've described before, if the DDI subscriptions are VERY charitable multiplied by 5 to assume that ONLY DMs subscribe and they have an average of 4 players each, and we further assume that it is a significant portion of the 4E fan base, then the D&D fan base has taken a major blow.

Any way you slice it the data "strongly suggests" that D&D as a brand is not what it once was.
 

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