Can golems reason?

[Celebrim]

A stone golem can reason exactly as far as the DM wants it to.

I agree with you in as much as I believe the DM has the right to assign a golem any degree of intelligence that he wants. However, I am of the school that says, once a DM describes the world (even if just to himself) he is obligated to follow that description. If I write down that the creature has 40 hit points, then it has 40 hit points even if it unexpectedly takes 40 hit points in the first round. That means, if I assign a Golem a zero intelligence, I'm obligated to play that golem as if he had no more than zero intelligence to the best of my ability. So, while I agree that my interpretation of 'zero intelligence' doesn't have to be a universal standard, I believe that the DM should think out ahead of time what his standard is and adhere to it.

If the DM has the goal of achieving some effect in an encounter, he's obligated to produce a mechanical description of the encounter that he believes leads to that effect. If the PC's thwart his design, he's obligated to stick to his prior decisions as much as possible without fudging the mechanics to achieve his prior design.

If the DM wants it to relentlessly pursue the characters, then it has the ability to relentlessly pursue the characters.

In a sense, yes. If the DM wants a monster with the ability to relentlessly pursue the characters, then he grant the monster some sort of prowess in either magical perception or sufficient intelligence. But, if the monster is defined, then we are past the question of what the DM wants and on to the question of, "Given the resources described, what does the NPC do?" This may or may not completely overthrow what I want as the DM, because - having finished my description - I'm no longer primarily wearing the hat of story teller but also now wearing the hat of referee and arbitor. If I'm always running with the question, "What do I want here?", even during game time, then I cannot by any means be fair to the players.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I say tailor the monsters to your setting. If you want golems that can't reason in your game world, make it so. If you prefer that golems have rudimentary reasoning ability in your setting, then make it so. If you want a setting where golems have human intelligence or better, go that direction.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I agree with you in as much as I believe the DM has the right to assign a golem any degree of intelligence that he wants. However, I am of the school that says, once a DM describes the world (even if just to himself) he is obligated to follow that description. If I write down that the creature has 40 hit points, then it has 40 hit points even if it unexpectedly takes 40 hit points in the first round. That means, if I assign a Golem a zero intelligence, I'm obligated to play that golem as if he had no more than zero intelligence to the best of my ability. So, while I agree that my interpretation of 'zero intelligence' doesn't have to be a universal standard, I believe that the DM should think out ahead of time what his standard is and adhere to it..

I think this is very fair (with the caveat that the GM could also introduce varations from one monster to another---perhaps how a golem is created impacts its INT score).

But you will still have the issue that comes up in this thread even when the GM settles on the standard scores: what those numbers mean can be a subjective determination in some cases. Obviously HP, STR, etc are pretty concrete, but I've seen all kinds of interpretations of INT, WIS and CHR scores.

 

[Janx]

I agree with you in as much as I believe the DM has the right to assign a golem any degree of intelligence that he wants. However, I am of the school that says, once a DM describes the world (even if just to himself) he is obligated to follow that description. If I write down that the creature has 40 hit points, then it has 40 hit points even if it unexpectedly takes 40 hit points in the first round. That means, if I assign a Golem a zero intelligence, I'm obligated to play that golem as if he had no more than zero intelligence to the best of my ability. So, while I agree that my interpretation of 'zero intelligence' doesn't have to be a universal standard, I believe that the DM should think out ahead of time what his standard is and adhere to it.

On the simpler point of zero intelligence, that's all my example was to illustrate was that I can design a robot to perform the patrol and attack duties without actually making it intelligent.

If the DM has the goal of achieving some effect in an encounter, he's obligated to produce a mechanical description of the encounter that he believes leads to that effect. If the PC's thwart his design, he's obligated to stick to his prior decisions as much as possible without fudging the mechanics to achieve his prior design.

On this point, we get into general GMing practice and advice.

Overall, I think it's pretty good advice.

The GM runs the risk of railroading behaviors when they alter the what happens next in order to achieve a GM's desired outcome.

I think a GM should only deviate from what's written when:
you realize that what you wrote was unbalanced and "unfair" (whatever that means)
shifting it makes sense in light of the players choices and other factors in the game

You can't give the enemy protection from fire, just because the PCs bought a fireball wand in town before they attacked his house. You can heal up the enemies because the PCs withdrew to lick their own wounds and then they returned.


Bringing this topic back to Golems, because Golems are basically a programmed robot, its behaviors must remain consistent per encounter with the party. If the party gets chased around by it for an hour, and then they escape, when they come back and do the exact same strategy, they should get the exact same result.

 

[Janx]

As a thought exercise, here's what I think the functional spec for a Golem is, as envisioned by a software developer:

A golem has the following capabilities and features:

• basic voice recognition (ex. bring this cage to the study and set it on the table)
• basic object recognition (ex. it knows what a door is, can differentiate between wooden chest and iron box when you give it a command)
• collision avoidance (by default the golem avoids walls and stepping on things. Othewise you'd have a lot of broken stuff and it would walk through your walls to take the shortest path)
• environmental self preservation (the golem will not walk into lava or off a cliff and if pushed will endeavor to restore itself to the ledge it was on)
• defensive self preservation (if attacked, it will dodge or block a blow so as to minimize damage to itself)
• locational memory (the golem knows the layout of all the rooms it has been in, and knows where all the objects are so it can choose the most efficient route to any location when directed)
• common object manipulation (the golem knows how to open/close a door and will do so in order to pass through the door, it does not know how to use a crossbow)
• naming memory (if the owner starts naming persons and objects, the golem will remember the name so the owner can reference the person or object by name.)
• simple combat capability(the golem can be ordered to fight or activated in threat mode and will swing a weapon or punch, the golems speed and strength compensate for any shortcomings in prowess)
• intruder classsification (the owner can designate what constitutes an intruder and what does not (like the owner's family) so it knows when to enter Threat mode from a security mode.)
• sensory capability (the golem can hear and see in 360 degrees (unless the model has specific eyes/ears) and uses this information to follow its directives

The golem has a number of modes. By default the golem is in Rest mode, not moving. It will take no action until the owner has given it a command.

For a golem to be dangerous and able to fight, it must be given a direct command to fight or put into one of the 2 security modes, Guard or Patrol.

In Guard mode, the golem stands motionless (or whatever pose the owner put it into before telling it to guard). When an intruder enters the room, the golem will enter Threat mode. The context of the command given to guard will impact the extent the golem will remain in Threat mode. If told:
"Guard this Room" the golem will remain in Threat mode until the intruder has left or is dead.
"Guard this box" the golem will remain in Threat mode until the intruder is dead or has left the vicinity of the box. This means the golem will follow the box, so long as it can sense it. it will enter Patrol mode if it loses sensory data on the box, in order to regain control of the box.

In Patrol mode, the golem will walk the perimeter of the defined environment. if it detects an Intruder (as defined by the owner, however nebulously), it will enter Threat mode. If it loses sensory contact with the intruder, it will resume Patrol mode.

Threat mode can only be reached when the golem is in one of the 2 security modes Patrol or Guard or by a direct command to attack from the owner. This is a safety feature for the owner. The owner can easily cancel Threat mode by telling the golem to Stop or Rest which will put it into Rest mode.

In Threat mode, the golem becomes dangerous. It will punch or slash, bludgeon or thrust with a weapon at the target. From the 2 security modes, the target is the entity identified as the Intruder, otherwise it is whomever the owner declared or pointed at.

The golem will fight until it is dead, the target is dead or the target escapes its senses.

The golem will effiectively pursue an enemy to within the area denoted by the owner as a function of atttempting to close to melee distance with the target.

The golem will always take the shortest path to the target, going around any obstacles. Thus it cannot be lured into an obvious pit between it and the target.

Please take care in following the assembly instructions. Always keep your golem in working order and follow the maintenance instructions.

We hope you enjoy your golem and may you have centuries of problem free service.

From "Golems for Dummies, 13th century edition"

 

[Alzrius]

There's a section about this in this article over at my favorite gaming blog. Here's the relevant section (talking about types of sentience in (d20) gaming):

I break down the “features” of a mind into several categories. There’s Will, desire and ability to choose between options. There’s Knowledge, having a significant body of information on some subject, or a skill. There’s Learning, the ability to gather more knowledge, develop skills, and in particular learn from mistakes. There’s Abstract Reasoning, which allows you to think about concepts and numbers without reference to specific physical examples. There’s Control, which grants the ability to refocus the mind and allocate resources consciously. There’s Foresight, which allows you to predict outcomes with a reasonable certainty. And finally, we have Metacognition, where a creature can use its full power for all tasks and concepts simultaneously.

[...]

Programmed

Programmed creatures have Knowledge but not Will.

A Programmed creature is usually a special-made creature, like a golem. It has a simple mind, able to handle some task or duties effectively but otherwise hollow. It doesn’t think as such, but simply responds to trigger conditions. However, when actually using its skills or abilities the creature responds very effectively. Examples include basic undead and most constructs: they aren’t exactly stupid, but they don’t act on their own. They can fight effectively, and serve well if given very clear instructions. Apart from that, Programmed creatures merely stand around waiting for orders.

 

[Slander]

Uh oh, Janx. Now you've brought up another point, and if this veers to far from the OP, I can start a more general "what CAN golems do" thread.

Dead. How does a golem, or any other 0 Int creature, define "dead"? Especially without situational memory. Does it have "infinite" Sense Motive to detect someone playing possum, or none at all? Based on the thread so far, I'd have to say the latter. It would make for a very amusing, albeit potentially lethal, game of "Red light, Green light". And I think if we really start to look at the situations in which golems are typically used, there are going to be more of these questions. Given the cost to make a golem, it doesn't seem, on the surface at least, to be a very wise security investment if they have a 0 Int.

Giving golems an Int of 3 in 4E seems somewhat prescient now, and I can't help but wonder if this same conversation echoed in WotCs halls at some point.

 

[Janx]

Indeed, recognition of not dead might require extra effort.

Though it might be solved by simple definitions. When the target stops moving or breathing.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Since it has an Int of 0, I would say that it can't attack or attempt to follow the characters shortly after they move beyond its range of perception. It might follow the characters around a corner shortly after they turned it, but if they took another turn and then stop and make no noise, the golem would be unsure of what to do and would 'reset' its own position.

The scenario is explicitly that someone is making noise and trying to attract it into an area that it normally couldn't fit into.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

How does a golem, or any other 0 Int creature, define "dead"?

In my adventure so far, it stomps on anything not moving hard enough to turn it into paste. (Its last master was a nasty piece of work.)