Is Magic a Setting Element or a Plot Device

[I'm A Banana]

The conflict is between Logic and Illogic.

If something exists in the "mythic" mode, it's illogical. Utterly. It does not need to obey the rules of anything. It does not respond to outside influence. It is crazy and amazing and beyond understanding, comprehension, or possibility. You can't out-think Sauron. He's the Dark Lord of Evil. It's not exactly right to say he's a "plot point," more that he's an iconic image of corruption and wickedness. He's not a character, he's a raw force of reality. Stopping him is like stopping a hurricane. And one butterfly flaps its wings and stops him.

If something exists in the "mundane" mode, it responds easily to logic and implementation. Oh, that Decanter of Endless Water can surely drown the world. Yes, you can develop military technology to counteract this villain. After all, he is merely a person like anyone else, even if he has Great Power.

3e leaned more towards the latter. 4e takes some steps towards the former, but since they're mostly for "balance," you get a good amount of kicking and screaming along the way.

 

[Hussar]

You sincerely believe that the internal logic of Middle Earth suggests that it should be awash in magic elf-knives, but Tolkien restricted the number appearing in The Lord of the Rings so that the story would work? Really?

That's not quite what I said.

However, there's a world between one elf knife and "awash" in elf knives. You'd think, maybe, an elvish lord like, oh, I don't know, Legolas might have one? Just a thought.

Or if Mithril was so effective as to be able to stop a blow from a cave troll, then perhaps the sons of the Steward of Gondor - a city state with 2500 years of history - might just perhaps have Mithril underpants?

Just a thought. I'm not saying that it has to be all over the place. But, the fact that they are singular, for no particular reason, makes them plot points.

----

KM, yes, I think that's about the right of it.

 

[Pentius]

The conflict is between Logic and Illogic.

If something exists in the "mythic" mode, it's illogical. Utterly. It does not need to obey the rules of anything. It does not respond to outside influence. It is crazy and amazing and beyond understanding, comprehension, or possibility. You can't out-think Sauron. He's the Dark Lord of Evil. It's not exactly right to say he's a "plot point," more that he's an iconic image of corruption and wickedness. He's not a character, he's a raw force of reality. Stopping him is like stopping a hurricane. And one butterfly flaps its wings and stops him.

If something exists in the "mundane" mode, it responds easily to logic and implementation. Oh, that Decanter of Endless Water can surely drown the world. Yes, you can develop military technology to counteract this villain. After all, he is merely a person like anyone else, even if he has Great Power.

3e leaned more towards the latter. 4e takes some steps towards the former, but since they're mostly for "balance," you get a good amount of kicking and screaming along the way.

I'd say that's about right.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Just a thought. I'm not saying that it has to be all over the place. But, the fact that they are singular, for no particular reason, makes them plot points.

I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm curious on this point... in your opinion, can something be rare in a book (movie, comic, whatever), and not be a plot point?

For example, can a nearly unbreakable mithril-like substance just be super rare in a book (Generic Fantasy Book) while remaining a piece of the setting? Or does its rarity therefore make it a plot point, in your mind?

Personally, I see plot devices not based on rarity, but on whether or not they exist to move the plot in some way. You can have a one-of-a-kind starmetal sword that is sharper and stronger than normal, but if it never cuts That Which Cannot Be Cut or withstands That Which Can Shatter Any Weapon, I don't think it's a plot device.

To that end, I'd personally categorize rare items as a setting issue. I do agree that rare items are used more prominently as plot devices than common items, but I'm not sure if it's more often. If you read some Conan books, the guy is skilled like no one else in combat. He's just the biggest, baddest dude around. However, he has horrible in-combat luck: he tends to trip on cloaks, slip and fall, etc. from time to time. This is usually to knock him out, have an enemy pounce on him only for an ally to save him, etc. This is obviously plot, but it's entirely mundane.

I don't think rarity damns something to be a plot device (not saying you think that; I'm just giving my thoughts on it). To that end, I'd definitely characterize limited magic, fantastical creatures, or unique objects as a setting issue. I wouldn't characterize it as plot at all, since many, many mundane things are used as plot devices.

Take your pick of protagonists: James Bond, Batman, Zorro, Rand al'Thor, whoever. They're all loaded up with moving the plot forward. It's not a genre thing, in my opinion. It's a plot thing. I don't think it's really all that related to magic in particular.

Mind you, I do understand where you're coming from. If something new and revolutionary's been used, I can understand why you'd rather the world take notice of it. I don't mind that point of view at all (and generally agree with it). I just don't see how this necessarily ties to magic (and I know you mentioned it's not genre-specific, and that Star Trek does this as well). Maybe you don't mean it that way, but I'm working off of the posts from you recently, the original post, and thread title.

Anyways, sorry for rambling on. There's my view on it, for whatever it's worth. As always, play what you like

 

[S'mon]

Or if Mithril was so effective as to be able to stop a blow from a cave troll, then

Yeah, that would be completely ridiculous. Good thing Tolkien never wrote anything so silly...

Edit: It was an orc, not a troll. The mithril just stopped the blade from penetrating, bruising/concussion as normal. If Frodo had been hit by a giant cave troll maul he'd be flat as a pancake.

 

[Dausuul]

However, there's a world between one elf knife and "awash" in elf knives. You'd think, maybe, an elvish lord like, oh, I don't know, Legolas might have one? Just a thought.

Legolas did have a long knife. It was mentioned someplace or other (Helm's Deep, I think?), but I don't think it's ever indicated whether it was like Sting. Legolas being an archer, he didn't have occasion to use it very much. His bow was presumably fairly spiffy, and then he got an extra-super-spiffy one from Galadriel.

Meanwhile, there was explicitly a second Sting-type weapon right in the Fellowship: Gandalf's sword Glamdring. Anduril may not have been the exact same type of weapon as Sting, but it was surely at least as good. Then you've got the other hobbits with their barrow-blades, not up to the Sting standard but pretty effective against the Witch-King... the Fellowship was loaded down with magic weapons of one type or another.

Or if Mithril was so effective as to be able to stop a blow from a cave troll, then perhaps the sons of the Steward of Gondor - a city state with 2500 years of history - might just perhaps have Mithril underpants?

You're on firmer ground with the mithril-coat, which does appear to be oddly unique considering how casually Thorin gave it to Bilbo. (Though it didn't stop a cave-troll's attack, just an orc spear.) Still, I don't think it's totally implausible that Boromir doesn't have one. I seem to recall it being mentioned that Sauron wanted all the mithril he could get his hands on, and he's had a lot of time to collect it. For all we know, the Witch-King was wearing some; the wounds that killed him were in the back of the knee and the face (ouch!), which a mail shirt would not have stopped.

Just a thought. I'm not saying that it has to be all over the place. But, the fact that they are singular, for no particular reason, makes them plot points.

Er, no, it doesn't. Being important to the plot would make them plot points. Being singular--well, Sting isn't singular, but if it was, it would make it singular. Contrariwise, as it isn't, it ain't.

 

[Pentius]

For what it's worth, in the movies, it was totally a troll.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi5pdd7xHNI]troll[/ame]

 

[Dausuul]

For what it's worth, in the movies, it was totally a troll.

troll

Not to diss the movies, which I thought were excellent, but I'm not going to try to defend their internal consistency. Movies generally have a much lower standard in that regard.

 

[Baron Opal]

...Casters that did know it have every reason to set up a facility for processing it, which would result in usable iron at a lower cost than mining, since miners have to be paid. Sure, 9th level magicians have other ways to get money, but this is one that doesn't require charming, thieving, looting or serving someone else, which makes it a nice choice.

I have to question whether is would actually be of lower cost, since you have to have either a truly massive blast furnace to create the wall in or have some means to cut the wall into slabs. If it is deceint quality iron to begin with that isn't trivial. With ore, you have it in easy to carry chunks already. It wouldn't be something you would be able to do on your own.

But, that isn't the discussion at hand, really.

To Hussar, I would like to question the rarity / plot point issue as well. What is the tipping point in your mind?

I would say that, if we look at novels as source material for games, that enchanted weapons are "accessible" and not plot points. Rings of power are, and are probably what we would consider "artifacts" in D&D. With mithril armor we have a bit of a quandry. It has been established that the only place mithril has ever been discovered was in Moria. This makes a specific, if undefined, limit on the amount of metal that is accessible. We also know that Sauron was trying to gather all that he could find for his own forces. I might lean towards "plot point" on this one since there would be no accessible ore and no talent for working or reworking it as those skills are lost.

Looking to the Books of Swords, the 12 swords are definately walking plot points. While there is magic and several rules are known, enchanted items seem to be very rare, partially technological in some cases, and very difficult to fashion. Magic itself and those that practice it is more accessible.

The Wheel of Time tends to have magic more accessible. The feminine side is very well charted, although there is much lost lore that could be recovered. The masculine side is an unknown, but discoverable in the right circumstances. There are magic items, and the means to fabricate them is (mostly) lost but discoverable.

 

[mmadsen]

The reason there aren't more elf knives is because it's a plot point. That's the long and short of it.

You sincerely believe that the internal logic of Middle Earth suggests that it should be awash in magic elf-knives, but Tolkien restricted the number appearing in The Lord of the Rings so that the story would work? Really?

That's not quite what I said.

I guess we need to define what you mean by plot device then, because to me it's something that exists to advance the plot -- particularly something contrived or arbitrary. How are you using the term?

To me, it makes perfect sense for mithril shirts to be extremely rare in Tolkien's world, and it's plausible that Frodo might end up with one, even though the shirt's worth a king's ransom.

It also makes sense for elf-knives to be rare, in the same way any extremely high-end side-arm would be rare.

It does not appear to me at all that Tolkien broke the internal logic of his world -- by making these things unreasonably rare -- in order to make his plot work.

You'd think, maybe, an elvish lord like, oh, I don't know, Legolas might have one?

As I recall, he does have an elf blade, just not one of the great named blades.

Or if Mithril was so effective as to be able to stop a blow from a cave troll, then perhaps the sons of the Steward of Gondor - a city state with 2500 years of history - might just perhaps have Mithril underpants?

First, Frodo's mithril shirts stops an Orc captain's spear from running him through. He's still left for dead though.

Second, I believe the palace guards of Gondor are mentioned as having mithril helmets leftover from ages past.

But, the fact that they are singular, for no particular reason, makes them plot points.

Mithril is described as worth ten times its weight in gold while it's still being mined from Moria. After the Balrog's release, it becomes priceless.

Does Tolkien work this into his plot? Sure. Is it contrived? I guess we disagree on that.