Paladin moral delima

[haakon1]

Lawfuls absolutely have to all the time. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there tends to be a linear relationship in a lawful between wisdom and self-evaluation. How do I keep to the code? By continually meditating on the code and evaluating my past, present, and future performance on that basis. They've got a map; they've got a guidebook; they are supposed to be constantly referencing it and checking where they are against it. Have I strayed? What do I have to do next?.

Do you think Jeanne d'Arc would agonize over whether or not to escape from the English? Or would she do it without a second thought, to get on with the holy war the voices in her head told her to pursue?

(Attempting not to draw the wrath of the moderators.) Think of a recent war leader who spoke a lot in religious terms. Was he a deep thinker, or a shoot from the gut guy who made the calls as he saw them? You can disagree with his calls, but I think his religious calling was genuine and he was genuinely trying to "do what God wants".

Holy zeal and quite contemplation are not necessarily related.

I think you're projecting a certain personality type (SJ accountant types, perservers of institutions and traditions) as being paladins, perhaps because those are the religious people you know. Those people would stay home and run a parish, not head to the dungeon to crush God's enemies!

I think paladins are actually more likely to be NF personalities -- spiritual and intuitive Questor types, in tune with what their god wants, and seeking the holy truth.

In theory, a lawful might be naturally lawful so that the code is written into his being in such a way that there is no need to reflect on the code because he naturally knows what to do

Precisely my view.

Chaotics can generally get away with 'to your own self be true'

Instead, paladins are true to their god.

 

[Celebrim]

Do you think Jeanne d'Arc would agonize over whether or not to escape from the English? Or would she do it without a second thought, to get on with the holy war the voices in her head told her to pursue?

I think Jeanne d'Arc would do precisely what the voices in her head told her to do.

Now, was Jeanne d'Arc lawful? That's a question I'm not prepared to answer.

Holy zeal and quite contemplation are not necessarily related.

Holy zeal and lawfulness are not necessarily related.

Those people would stay home and run a parish, not head to the dungeon to crush God's enemies!

Not everyone rushing to the dungeon to crush God's enemies is lawful.

The sterotype you are providing here of unreflective fanaticism shows exactly why most people fail when they try to animate a lawful character. Likewise, you are equally willing to negatively sterotype a person who is introspective with someone who is dithering and angsty. Why shouldn't introspection lead to resolution or determination? Do you think conviction and faith is just a feeling that you get?

If you don't like Luke Skywalker, try Willow Ufgood...

Hardly iconic for anything, much less of lawfulness.

...or Beowulf

Complex text. Would require several essays just to talk about it.

...or Aragorn

Lawful, yes. But also, very introspective and frequently self-doubting character, so hardly an illustration of your point.

or Captain America or something . . .

Which one?

 

[Janx]

My argument is not in favor of playing a paladin as Hamlet ("to slay or not to slay? Is it nobler to remain jailed by a hobgoblin, or to escape like I'm not a moron? Woe is me, such a difficult question.") nor as Miko.

My argument is that, given the choice of angsty philosophy major paladin or kill 'em all let god sort them out Taliban paladin, both choices are bad, because they are boring to the player and annoying to everyone else. And lead to these endless internet bullsessions about things that normal people would never actually do in a game, in my experience.

The right choice, IMHO, is to play a hero. PLAY as in get on with the game and stop obsessing about it. HERO as in no rules lawyering pushing to the limits of unheroic player, no illogical self-defeating Lawful Stupid actions, just Do the Right Thing.

If you don't like Luke Skywalker, try Willow Ufgood or Beowulf or Aragorn or Captain America or something . . . traditional fantasy is full of heroic heroes, if you ignore the "everyone must wear black and be a rogue" types of recent pop culture.

A Jedi is probably a paladin. The rest of those fictional examples? Less likely, more likely a ranger.

going by your gut is chaotic. going by your reasoning is lawful. therefore, a lawful character is one who is seen to be reasoning their way through problems.

The dude from Kung Fu was likely a paladin. That guy was always contemplating things, and kicking butt.

Now somebody who's always quoting stuff, but never considering how it actually applies to the situation, and thus is rigid in their behavior, not sure if that's lawful, stupid or just not thinking for themselves.

 

[Celebrim]

A Jedi is probably a paladin. The rest of those fictional examples? Less likely, more likely a ranger.

going by your gut is chaotic. going by your reasoning is lawful. therefore, a lawful character is one who is seen to be reasoning their way through problems.

Just for the record, I don't agree with any of that.

 

[haakon1]

The sterotype you are providing here of unreflective fanaticism shows exactly why most people fail when they try to animate a lawful character.

I think the choice that's being presented is:

(1) fanatical Taliban paladin who kills everything in sight for no good reason

-or-

(2) angsty philosophy graduate student paladin who needs to light up a Gitanes and contemplate what Foucault would think before taking his next action

This, IMHO, a choice between "sucky, annoying paladin #1" and "sucky, annoying paladin #2".

I can't imagine wanting to play either.

What I'm trying to say is: there's an alternative to both Lawful Stupid kill 'em all and Lawful Stupid "to be or not to be" paladins.

The alternative I'm advocating is simple: play a paladin as a hero dedicated to a cause.

I just want to play the archetype that I (intuitively) think paladin is meant to be, not argue about rules.

It doesn't "break" the paladin to be introspective, but if you're stopping the game to be introspective, or holding up the works because you're getting squemish about just getting on with the adventure, it would be really annoying, IMHO.

If Rule 0 is "the DM decides", Rule 1 is "the game must go on", no fiddling with papers or philosophizing or debating the propriety of your actions when you init comes up -- just play.

 

[haakon1]

Now somebody who's always quoting stuff, but never considering how it actually applies to the situation, and thus is rigid in their behavior, not sure if that's lawful, stupid or just not thinking for themselves.

I've never actually seen someone play a paladin that way.

My main thought about it would be that it's annoying for the other people at the game table (because it's showboating and boring), not about whether the paladin was being "played right" by the rules.

 

[haakon1]

I wish I could "like" RedTonic's XP comment above.

 

[jasper]

On the old 1ua Cavaliers... one of the Best dm moments I had was when my brother told the group they could RUN AWAY from the BBEG and his minions. But he was Cavalier and the BBEG was going down. He charged, they ran away. I giggle as I took him down in 2 rounds. he laughed about because this the first time he serious lost as Cav.
I was nice and let the group recover the Cav's body.
I was very nice and after a session or 2 later recover his Cav's Armour and weapons from the dead BBEG torphy room.
See my next comment on original post.

 

[jasper]

Jasper Paladin thoughts
DMs must come up with a code of conduct for paladins. And allow the player to make adjustments. This needs to be done before the character is created.

The Detect Evil ability of paladins is not a problem. Detect Evil targets creatures, objects and spells. Humanoid are classified as creatures. A character with an evil alignment at tenth or lower level would have a faint aura of power. Up to twenty-fifth level a moderate aura. A priest of evil god who class level is one has a faint, second to fourth a moderate, strong at fifth to tenth, and overwhelming after that. Detect Evil is divination with V, S, Df, how ever it is spell like ability which has no components. Can the detect evil spell like ability be detected? It depends on the Dm handles spell like abilities, and if there are any spells up on the patrons.


So Paladin casts a spell in crowded bar and in eighteen seconds knows at table four there is one overwhelming aura, and three faint traces. He charges! After slaying the evil he is beheaded for murder. It is time for player to roll up his next paladin. A paladin is just another adventurer who can be cast into jail for violating the local laws.

However paladins are not cops.
Ex. Lawyer, Excuse me Bucky the Wonder Paladin, did you say halt I’m a Paladin before you attacked Orcus in the town square.
Bucky, No he was EVIL!
Dm, Boom There it is! No more paladin powers for you since you violated the law.
If this were to happen in a game, the dm does not understand paladins.

Also a paladin is not smite on sight sword slinger.
Ex. Bucky the Wonder Paladin while giving a class on justice, decides to detect evil on the Springfield Elementary fourth grade class. Suddenly he rushes over and starts choking Bart Simpson. With the aid of Ned Flanders, Principal Skinner was able to subdue Bucky. Bucky is now doing five to ten in the local pen. Hey that is it. Sideshow Bob is a paladin.

A paladin liberally using his Detect Evil every five rounds isn’t smart either and he is being tacky. Bucky the Wonder paladin arrives on noon stage coach to Tatoonie. He wanders into Jabba’s Bar and Grill (slogan you kill we grill for a small fee). Bucky starts detecting evil. He draws his sword. (sfx of mass blaster fire). A small droid rolls out of wall and vacuums up the ashes. The bartender adds another hash mark to paladins’ wasted wall.

What Bucky should do is something like this. Bucky the Wonder paladin and party are stop by Mr. Haney the road side vendor. While Mr. Haney goes into his pitch, Bucky detects evil and receives a faint aura. Bucky, “It sounds like a good deal on the +3 vorpal Ginzu set but I do not trust Mr. Haney. Mr. Haney are you sure this is a good deal?” etc. Bucky then notes Mr. Haney as a person to keep an eye on in the future.

Are paladins the law, Judge Dread of the land? Ask your Dm. IMC it varies with kingdom whether they are the law enforcement office. Now I once had a Paladin chase the party half way across the continent. Once she caught up with party and learned the facts of jail break, she charged them with the jail break. Fined them and made them pay the wergild for the slain guards. Then cut them loose since the party was fighting greater evil than the violation of kingdom laws.

Would Bucky the Wonder Paladin back stab Orcus in the back, when Orcus is shopping at Wal-Mart? It depends on the level and code of conduct of paladin. At first level just as he was going for his sword his cell phone would beep.
Bucky, “Hello, Bucky speaking.” Voice, “do not do it. You are not good enough yet.” Bucky, “but he is EVIL!”
Voice, “the boss does not employ stupid paladins. Help is on the way so just sit still and don’t get yourself nuked!”
Bucky, “What’s a nuke?”
Voice, “Never mind that!” click.
Now if Bucky was twentieth level, and Bucky was shopping for some new Underroos and spied Orcus in the shoe dept and he did nothing. His cell phone would beep.
“Bucky here. How may I help you?”
Voice, “Clean up on aisle five.”
Bucky, “Can’t you see I am shopping in peace here?” Voice, “Clean up on aisle five, now.”
Bucky, “Hey I am on vacation! Can’t you get someone else?”
Voice, “Clean up on aisle five, right now! Or how long can you tread water!”
Bucky, “Ok I’m going. You can’t take a little joke.” Click.


I allow paladins to drink, smoke, flirt etc depending on their CoC. Hey they can have gas if they want to. The CoC for each god is not necessary the same to give each religion and paladin some style. Also the player decides on how evil aura appears to the paladin. One player uses the taste of crisp bacon for faint, to burnt bacon, to spit it out. Another uses smell and still another uses color yellow, orange, then red.

A dm must never set up a no win dilemma for paladin. So no coming to intersection and having to choose between saving Grandpa Jones from the wolf or running into the burning hut to save Baby Huey.

A dm should give a clear warning that a propose action will result in lost of paladin hood. Either Bucky the Wonder paladin gets a cold shiver as he starts to plan the bank robbery. Or the dm speaks, “Jasper I will pull the paladin status of Bucky if you keep it up.” The warning should be clear enough for player to take five and decide to continue with the action or not.

A player needs to clearly understand how the dm views the CoC. Accept the fact that some players do not get along the dm’s views and play another class.

Now to srd
A Willing commit an evil act.
Respect legitimate authority. I sorry of Great Evil Mucky Muck but I must respectfully ask you step down from the throne. I have to lop off you head to pay for the thousands of people your secret police assassinated on your orders. No problems with this one.
Help the needy in good ways.
Punish those who harm others, or threaten harm.

Act with honor (No lying, no cheating, no poison use, insert dm views here). Ok here is where you need your dm’s input. Do I tell the border guards the truth, I here to toss Orcus off his throne or just say personal business? Is a bluff a lie?
Can I cheat a con man and win back the orphanage’s Christmas goose fund?
Can I use sleep poison to bring in Bad Bart Simpson for trial, or do I just hack him up when he is down for the count?

begin of insert
the above is something I wrote I think around 2002 and posted here. If some wants to updated for termnology/spells feel free but send me a copy.

Now after reading all 5 pages and with only what the OP has posted.
Can Bucky the Wonder who is strip down to his Captain America and Barney the Dinosaur underroos, escape the EVILLLLL hobgoblin camp silently? yes. and tinkle in the hobgoblins beer on the way out depend on his code.
Can he acquire his gear? Yes. no matter what his code.
Must he wake the evil Chief Harry Plotter of Hobgobwarts Clan and challenge him to single combat? Depends on his level, his code, the player's view, his dm's views. Since he was low level enough to get capture and about to be served up as Pickled Paladin Relish to an EVIL god. No. No. he too low level to take the Chief and his clan out single handed.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

A few points I'd like to make/rehash:

1) First and foremost, the OP and his table just need to have fun playing their game.
2) Open communication is needed by everyone at the table so that you all know what is acceptable/unacceptable for your characters. Find out what the DM is expecting or will allow. Talk to him about your CoC, your gods views on things, and what the rest of your table thinks about how to play out the scenario in your group.
3) This thread shows that there are a lot of different styles and ideas on how to play a paladin "properly." They are not all right and they are not all wrong, so I say just play it how you want to after you have followed point #2 and then point #1 will happen.

'nuff said

Trav