• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

Paladin moral delima

I think the OP visited EnWorld and said "we haven't had a paladin moral dilemna thread for a while, I'll start one". So, hence, as per usual paladin moral dilemna threads: let's imagine a given situation and see if the paladin actually has leeway to decide on how to act, or if he "should be forced" to act as per a predetermined super-rigid set of moral rules that would strip him from his divine powers (and the player, from his testicules) if he doesn't follow said set of rules.

My secret agenda: to increase the player base that supports paladins (or Dirty Aragorn Harry rangers!) actually being able to decide what they want to do like any other member of mortal races, albeit in a role where the characters are expected some kind of moral direction that will influence their actions without dictating or forcing anything. And this, until paladin moral dilemna threads become obsolete and we start discussing the class in shades of grey instead of in back and white, for the benefit of all!
 

log in or register to remove this ad

perhaps i'm just struggling a bit on a paladin sneaking up from behind and assassinating someone... seems less than honorable to me...
If I was the DM, and the player's paladin was trying to escape confinement to bring vital information to his liege, no problems here.

There are some significant assumptions put into play, however. One of those is that paladins try to always take the high road. They need to be figures that inspire respect and emulation. Getting sacrificed to a dark god because you thought it would be dishonorable to escape from prison isn't being a good example.

Now, this action as SOP? No, that wouldn't be acceptable. But given the circumstances as they are it would be okay.

Finally, the most important part is that it is a game. The class of paladin is meant, in my mind, to be one righteous butt-kicker. Laying subtle traps with shades of meaning is not fun for the player or myself.
 

Well, if the DM hasn't otherwise set some kind of obligation or restriction on what the paladin must do then it's just up to the player. It's otherwise not a matter of morality or ethics - it's just a question of military expediency. If the paladin can escape cleanly he can bring back help to destroy the encampment and rescue all the prisoners. If he starts playing Secret Agent is he risking blowing the whole deal or can he still get away after offing just a few of the enemy leaders?

As I read the "code" and class restrictions in the PH I see nothing that tells me as a player what I am otherwise obliged to do in this situation.

Precisely.

If I was playing either my current 4e Roman Paladin or my previous 3.5e Viking Paladin, the answer to the "dilemma" would be the same. The priorities is defeating the threat, with the sub proirities being: (1) escape, survive, and return to your unit, (2) get your stuff back, and (3) get useful intel and bring it back, which means you need to be alive.

It's a pretty odd PC if surviving isn't a high priority. Paladins are not defense attorneys for monsters, as I quipped earlier. They are also not suicide bombers.
 
Last edited:

A Paladin regardless of his choice of actions, is always going to have to be deeply involved in inspecting his own real inner motivations and judging whether he has acted wisely and justly.

I disagree. You could play a paladin as introspective, but I don't see it as a requirement of the role.

Again, I go back to thinking of hero = paladin. Does Luke Skywalker stop after each fight to comtemplate whether any of his actions could have been even more morally upright? Nope -- his business is saving the day, not teaching moral philosophy.

Time enough for introspective contemplation in the grave. :)
 
Last edited:

Again, I go back to thinking of hero = paladin. Does Luke Skywalker stop after each fight to comtemplate whether any of his actions could have been even more morally upright? Nope -- his business is saving the day, not teaching moral philosophy.

Considering his family history and his own flirtation with the dark side, I think your example is illustrative in ways you didn't intend.

Besides, I disagree. Luke spends a fairly significant amount of screen time wrestling with what to do (and presumably more than that off screen). It's that internal drama and conflict that helps us care about the external action. It is what separates the original Star Wars trilogy from most of the effects laiden but forgettable summer blockbusters that have followed it.
 

On an aside, how come we always have Paladin alignment threads, but rarely Ranger alignment threads. Is it because they are seen as more Dirty Aragon Harry than Galahad so nobody fudges with them?

Honestly, it's because almost everyone plays Rangers as Chaotic Good.

In my experience, most Americans gravitate to Chaotic as a moral philosophy (freedom, individuality, personal expression, following the dictates of your conscious, etc.) and so they do a pretty good job with it overall. But they tend to have problems with Law if only for lack of experience having to adhere to an externally imposed moral code. People who choose to play Law are relatively rare, and when they do they usually make a mess of it by negatively sterotyping it. Heck, there aren't even a lot of good examples in cinema or literature anymore. It's pretty much been vigilante/rogue/dark champions since the late 70's/early 80's.
 

I disagree. You could play a paladin as introspective, but I don't see it as a requirement of the role.

Again, I go back to thinking of hero = paladin. Does Luke Skywalker stop after each fight to comtemplate whether any of his actions could have been even more morally upright? Nope -- his business is saving the day, not teaching moral philosophy.

Time enough for introspective contemplation in the grave. :)

I'm afraid, therein lies the problem.

People with codes of conduct, etc SHOULD be thinking and questioning their own actions.

While not paralyzed with indecision, they need to be considering if they made the right choice.

The crappy Paladin stereotype like Miko is BECAUSE they follow the code like a robot, and that makes for an annoying character, not a hero.
 

I'm afraid, therein lies the problem.

People with codes of conduct, etc SHOULD be thinking and questioning their own actions.

Lawfuls absolutely have to all the time. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there tends to be a linear relationship in a lawful between wisdom and self-evaluation. How do I keep to the code? By continually meditating on the code and evaluating my past, present, and future performance on that basis. They've got a map; they've got a guidebook; they are supposed to be constantly referencing it and checking where they are against it. Have I strayed? What do I have to do next?

In theory, a lawful might be naturally lawful so that the code is written into his being in such a way that there is no need to reflect on the code because he naturally knows what to do, but this intuitive understanding is probably more typical of a lawful outsider than a lawful mortal, and in any event all this means is that to play such a character the player themselves must be able to approximate that nature - probably by very intensive meditation on the code.

The problem you get is two fold. Chaotics can generally get away with 'to your own self be true', because the individual is the judge of himself in that belief system. Usually you get lawful stupidity when the player plays a lawful, but plays him just going with his gut as in, "I'M AN AGENT OF RIGHTEOUS JUSTICE! FEAR ME EVIL DOERS!", which typically results in behavior that his neither righteous nor just. Or else, you have a player who is trying to adhere to a code, but has in his head this 5 sentence overly simplistic code that has no relationship whatsoever to real moral codes (which IRL usually require lengthy periods of study and indoctrination to learn) and instead of adhering to some complex set of moral maxims the player adherses to a set of beliefs which are trivially disfunctional. So you get complex codes of honor that may contain summaries of complex ideas like, "Never show cowardice", where in the real code there might be pages and pages explaining what that means, distilled down to their 3 wisdom counter part like, "Never retreat" or "Always seek out hazard." and regardless of the supposed wisdom of the character it ends up being played as a blind 3 wisdom fool.

The crappy Paladin stereotype like Miko is BECAUSE they follow the code like a robot, and that makes for an annoying character, not a hero.

Indeed. And not just a robot; a robot with a super-simplified script - the Roomba of Paladins.

If you want to play a believable lawful character, you are going to need to spend a lot of time mediating over what that character believes because lawful characters are defined by the fact that they define themselves in relationship to external orders. They don't see themselves as in charge of themselves and just 'doing what they want', which is the default mode of play of most players. In fact, most so called lawful characterizations tend to players 'doing what they want' where what they want is actually a self-actualizing force for vengeance, judgment, and violence. Hense, most Paladins in play (IME) are played as chaotic evil vigillantes where the ends justify the means and they are accountable to no one.

Honestly, unless the player is from a social/cultural background that does understand the other taking precedence of the self or has really proven themselves to me, I'd pretty much rather they didn't play a lawful. Most groups trend strongly to chaos in my experience regardless of whats on their sheet, and having lawful written there if anything tends to make it worse. (Lawful as an excuse for REALLY doing what you want without regard to anything.)

These problems have nothing really to do with alignment. I could drop alignment entirely, and the same sort of things would happen (because they come up in systems without alignment in the few cases where you see players in those systems not playing the equivalent of ruffians, vigillantes and bandits). As soon as the player conceives of the character following a code, we are in the same place we would be had we still had alignment, and of course the same natural play style of a group tends to come out.
 


I'm afraid, therein lies the problem.

People with codes of conduct, etc SHOULD be thinking and questioning their own actions.

While not paralyzed with indecision, they need to be considering if they made the right choice.

The crappy Paladin stereotype like Miko is BECAUSE they follow the code like a robot, and that makes for an annoying character, not a hero.

My argument is not in favor of playing a paladin as Hamlet ("to slay or not to slay? Is it nobler to remain jailed by a hobgoblin, or to escape like I'm not a moron? Woe is me, such a difficult question.") nor as Miko.

My argument is that, given the choice of angsty philosophy major paladin or kill 'em all let god sort them out Taliban paladin, both choices are bad, because they are boring to the player and annoying to everyone else. And lead to these endless internet bullsessions about things that normal people would never actually do in a game, in my experience.

The right choice, IMHO, is to play a hero. PLAY as in get on with the game and stop obsessing about it. HERO as in no rules lawyering pushing to the limits of unheroic player, no illogical self-defeating Lawful Stupid actions, just Do the Right Thing.

If you don't like Luke Skywalker, try Willow Ufgood or Beowulf or Aragorn or Captain America or something . . . traditional fantasy is full of heroic heroes, if you ignore the "everyone must wear black and be a rogue" types of recent pop culture.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top