What's stopping WOTC from going back to 3.5?

[Gondsman]

while i could maybe see some value in WOTC just reprinting some 3.5 books and testing out the response, see if they can pick up some extra cash, I don't think ultimately it would change anything so far as their popularity and reputation among gamers as a whole.

If they do come out with a 5e, the only way they are going to make a lot of people happy is if they come out with some kind of ala-carte system where they have multiple options that can be mixed and matched, but would ultimately be extremely difficult to balance.

Something where you have 3 choices of skill systems, or an HP system with high HP, high damage, and healing surges, compared with a low HP, lower combat damage/survivability system. The idea being that a group can tailor the rules to their play styles such as combat/tactics heavy vs. story/realism heavy. Unfortunately to create such a system with so many swap outs would be a tremendous problem.

 

[BriarMonkey]

From what I know of the Print-On-Demand model, it would take a little time and effort up front, but after that, it'd pretty much take care of itself. Thus, with a little time on WotC's part, they could make available the core books, and more popular other books, available from prior editions for sale. That doesn't mean they need to invest resources into the upkeep or development of the line - just make the old stuff available to those who want them.

I know many people, myself included, that would love to get a new hardcopy of some older books (which have been lost or maimed through time).

 

[Thunderfoot]

Yep, as always Umbran, you put my words into far sharper contrast/focus than I could, I salute you!

 

[Roland55]

What's stopping WOTC from going back to 3.5?

Mostly that Paizo has already taken 3.5's stuff - without even bothering to kill it first.

Lanefan

We can't really blame Paizo for this.

I hear they found poor old 3.5 stumbling around in an alley with a 5-day old beard, filthy clothes, and a real bad hangover.

I guess they saw some potential after they showered up the old boy and gave him a hot meal.

 

[Thunderfoot]

We can't really blame Paizo for this.

I hear they found poor old 3.5 stumbling around in an alley with a 5-day old beard, filthy clothes, and a real bad hangover.

I guess they saw some potential after they showered up the old boy and gave him a hot meal.

I heard the was a small amount of therapy involved, both mental and physical, but is was rather quick and painless.

 

[Mark CMG]

Mark - I think WotC is done with PDFs, they got burned pretty hard on the pirate market.

I'm not one who believes that a stolen copy is a lost sale whether it is a PDF or a hardcopy. I do believe that some folks can manage to track who and how many electronic copies are stolen, and I don't blame a company for wishing the prosecute those who steal, if that is possible where those people happen to be. However, I do not believe that stolen copies translate to lost sales. So, the idea that they were "burned" isn't something I believe either.

Nor is anything but pirated current edition materials the reason they gave for pulling their entire PDF collection, so not having PDFs of older editions makes no sense by their logic. Once it is setup (and I helped RPGNow set it up), it is practically no cost for a revenue stream that, given how long WotC was in the top sellers, was obviously substantial. Fortunately, they just hired a guy to write their Legends & Lore column who knows this for a fact since he was periodically a top seller and has some sense of what WotC is actually losing. Furthermore, I have no doubt that RPGNow has all of the old code still available (they'd be knuckleheads not to). So, if given the go-ahead, they could probably get all of the old PDFs back up for sale in short order and with little fuss for WotC.

No, the assessment that they were "burned" just doesn't ring true to me. No offense to you, of course, as that is a fair way of describing what they projected as true, it just isn't something I believe to be true. If they really want a big tent, they could drop an email on RPGNow and have a big tent before the weekend was over.

 

[Erik Mona]

We can't really blame Paizo for this.

I hear they found poor old 3.5 stumbling around in an alley with a 5-day old beard, filthy clothes, and a real bad hangover.

I guess they saw some potential after they showered up the old boy and gave him a hot meal.

In point of fact, we burned off its scruffy beard only to discover that it was, in fact, Prince Namor.

--Erik

 

[GregoryOatmeal]

Everyone you know probably isn't really very many people. Nor do they seem to be representative of what's going on anywhere else. WotC can't make business decisions based on the casual survey of one guy in one area and the gamers he knows.

So I said they were anecdotal observations in my original post, but do they ring true for others reading this? I don't have much data but it's really rare to hear people claim 4E has more momentum than 3.5 in their community. Do you feel more gamers you know are teaching their siblings, nephews, and friends 4E than 3.5? Are they recommending new players get 4E and go out and buy the books?

I can piece together some evidence

Amazon - Pathfinder is outselling the 4E PHB. This indicates PF is about as popular or moreso than 4E but misses a whole demographic that plays a game that is essentially the same. If you believe more people play 3.5 than PF that indicates at a minimum the 3.5 system (PF and 3.5) is twice as popular as 4E.

Meetup - I've seen 4 3.5 games start here and a 2E game. No Pathfinder yet. I'm the only one to propose a 4E game. I consider this to be a very useful and neutral benchmark and I'm curious what others have noticed.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/311906-edition-buy.html - this post seems to reflect a lot of what I hear in my community. 3.5 recommendations outnumber PF and 4E.

I saw a WOTC designer write a really dour blog about freelancing, which devolved into a rant about his frustrations with the industry. In it he stated the D&D R&D team is the smallest it's ever been. I can't recall his name or find the blog (help me out) but I think it would be hard to dispute what he said about the size of the design team and what it indicates about D&D.

Again, this is all very anecdotal evidence. But I haven't seen any evidence that suggests WOTC's customer base hasn't shrunk dramatically. Can anyone show me any evidence that suggests more than 70% or even 51% of gamers play the version of D&D WOTC is selling.

 

[Moon_Goddess]

B) Pride - I can't imagine any company going back to an older product other than Coca-Cola, and even they balked at it for a long time (New Coke was out and in production for 3 years before it was finally pulled completely.)

Actually New Coke was simply renamed Coke II kept around in limited production runs but finally discontinued in 2002. So yeah, nobody wants to admit they were wrong.

 

[RedTonic]

Also, from a marketing perspective, re-releasing a recent-but-discontinued product when you still plan to invest in and develop a current product doesn't make sense when you are reasonably certain that the re-release would simply cut in to your current market share rather than expand it. You're cannibalizing your own base and diluting your brand. Supersaturation like that only "works" for a limited amount of time and only in certain circumstances, and for a certain value of "works." I don't believe it would be a successful strategy in the tabletop market. Disclaimer: I'm not in marketing, I'm just a business school grad who had to take it. Long story short, trying to pop out 3.5 again would more than likely be a bleeder for WotC, which isn't good for D&D and isn't good for the fans.

eta

We shouldn't forget that this is a recession, either. A recession is a pretty unique environment, as I think we can all agree. Layoffs at Hasbro and its subsidiaries should come as a surprise to no one. Nor should anyone be surprised that a product released during the recession (2008!) may not be burning the fat out of the market: a tabletop game is an entertainment product; most of us aren't exactly flush with cash, so we're avoiding optional spending. Likewise, we're more likely to stick with tried-and-true products like the now venerable 3.5e, of which Pathfinder is an inheritor.