What's stopping WOTC from going back to 3.5?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Actually New Coke was simply renamed Coke II kept around in limited production runs but finally discontinued in 2002. So yeah, nobody wants to admit they were wrong.

You almost got it right: Coke II was found in some foreign markets as late as 2006. After that, though, I don't know.

 

[gamerprinter]

So I said they were anecdotal observations in my original post, but do they ring true for others reading this? I don't have much data but it's really rare to hear people claim 4E has more momentum than 3.5 in their community. Do you feel more gamers you know are teaching their siblings, nephews, and friends 4E than 3.5? Are they recommending new players get 4E and go out and buy the books?

I can piece together some evidence

Amazon - Pathfinder is outselling the 4E PHB. This indicates PF is about as popular or moreso than 4E but misses a whole demographic that plays a game that is essentially the same. If you believe more people play 3.5 than PF that indicates at a minimum the 3.5 system (PF and 3.5) is twice as popular as 4E.

Meetup - I've seen 4 3.5 games start here and a 2E game. No Pathfinder yet. I'm the only one to propose a 4E game. I consider this to be a very useful and neutral benchmark and I'm curious what others have noticed.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/311906-edition-buy.html - this post seems to reflect a lot of what I hear in my community. 3.5 recommendations outnumber PF and 4E.

I saw a WOTC designer write a really dour blog about freelancing, which devolved into a rant about his frustrations with the industry. In it he stated the D&D R&D team is the smallest it's ever been. I can't recall his name or find the blog (help me out) but I think it would be hard to dispute what he said about the size of the design team and what it indicates about D&D.

Again, this is all very anecdotal evidence. But I haven't seen any evidence that suggests WOTC's customer base hasn't shrunk dramatically. Can anyone show me any evidence that suggests more than 70% or even 51% of gamers play the version of D&D WOTC is selling.

I don't think looking at your local conditions, nor an EnWorld poll will be anything but anecdotal.

That said, if you are looking at local anecdotal conditions only. Here in north central Illinois, I know of 1 group playing 4e, 2 groups playing 3.5, 8 groups playing Pathfinder, 1 playing Tales of Gaeia, 1 building its own classless RPG system.

This is not indicative of anything beyond local nuance, so it really says nothing about the entire market. At least locally here, Pathfinder is the game that rules, however.

 

[gamerprinter]

Actually I believe that New Coke was a ruse so Coca-cola could take sugar out of Coke and replace it with frucose, so when Coke was reintroduced we would think we got the original back - the taste is slightly different. If they gone form sugar Coke to frucose Coke directly, we'd have noticed the difference. While New Coke took our mind off it, so they could sneak in the frucose - I really believe that!

 

[amerigoV]

Oooo, awesome idea on going back to 3.5! That way 3.5 can finally be whole with the Complete Commoner and Plantonomicon! Or maybe they could make a book on undead constructs, since undead and constructs were the "filler" in most of the Monster Manuals (hmmm, I probably would buy a book call Dead Metal....). Yep, tons of fertile ground still left there! Now, if Wizards could consistently make good modules, then we got another discussion. But Paizo already has that market.

While people may or may not like 4e, the 3.5 line was done. It was either do 3.75 or do "4e" (4e being "different", not necessarily being the current 4e). They decided to do something different. Paizo picked the 3.75*. But 3.5 is a cold corpse now - ain't nothing new to make other than a setting. Any why bother at this point.

*I have wondered how many of the people that bitched about 3.5 being a money grab are Pathfinder lovers now (who, of course, would have cried foul to the high heavens if Wizards would have done the same thing). Ah well, I am too lazy to make a poll as I really do not care that much to know.

I loved 3.x, but its now dead. I have no problem with that (and its not cuz of 4e - its cuz of Savage Worlds, but that is a different story).

Now, off to make some Undead Constructs...

 

[The Shaman]

We have no idea how many of their players were "alienated".

Well, I was turned into a newt.

Does that qualify?

 

[The Shaman]

That way 3.5 can finally be whole with the Complete Commoner and Plantonomicon!

How sad is it that I read that and thought, "Hey, I could make a fun game out of those!"?

Or maybe they could make a book on undead constructs, since undead and constructs were the "filler" in most of the Monster Manuals (hmmm, I probably would buy a book call Dead Metal....).

Please add me to your pre-release mailing list.


And the irony of ironies, of course, is that I don't play (1) 3.5 or (2) any other fantasy roleplaying games, outside of an annual old school con. But they still sound cool.

 

[Fox Lee]

That doesn't match my memories. The Internet wasn't as big at the time, and I was playing GURPS, but the local group of D&D players quickly and unanimously switched over, while there's still some dissension in that same group over 3E versus 4e.

Gosh, that's not what I remember ^^; There were threads all over the newsgroups about how horrible the new rules were. My local gaming club was awash with controversy. Halfling paladins? "Feats"? "Skills"? NEVER!

Hell, I remember defending it against the 2e/AD&D diehards exactly the way I defend 4e against the 3.x diehards now Personally I'm still quite fond of 3.5e, though I prefer 4e because I find the rules much tighter and more robust (I do miss the OGL pretty profoundly). But the broader claim (not yours) that 4e is a failure? I simply have not seen evidence of that.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

prosfilaes
That doesn't match my memories. The Internet wasn't as big at the time, and I was playing GURPS, but the local group of D&D players quickly and unanimously switched over, while there's still some dissension in that same group over 3E versus 4e.

I'm with you there: our group had only one holdout on 3Ed, and even he switched after a few months (though he griped for over a year).

As for 4Ed, the only reason we're playing it right now is the guy running the active 3.5 campaign in early 2010 needed a break, and the new guy volunteered to run a 4Ed game. There are still people in our group who have not made a PC for the game. Speaking for myself only, while I gladly play the game, it hasn't won me over. 3.5Ed is still my D&D of choice; I have no desire to run 4Ed.

 

[Umbran]

Oooo, awesome idea on going back to 3.5! That way 3.5 can finally be whole with the Complete Commoner and Plantonomicon!

Well, to be fair, D&D is hardly the biggest offender there. You'd imagine by now SJG would have gotten to GURPS: Rocks, Plants, and Trees.

Well, I was turned into a newt.

Does that qualify?

Only if you were a particularly disgruntled newt.

Which always made me wonder - you can be disgruntled, but you can't be gruntled? What's up with that?

 

[Mark CMG]

We shouldn't forget that this is a recession, either. A recession is a pretty unique environment, as I think we can all agree.

I don't think anyone should or would agree. While avoiding the politics and posting only regarding the economics, there have been eight in my lifetime and 47 in the history of the USA, fwiw. Nearly a third of the years of my life have technically been said to be during periods of recession.

List of recessions in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Layoffs at Hasbro and its subsidiaries should come as a surprise to no one.

Layoffs at WotC are part of the business plan not a reaction to economic recession.