I don't want 5E, I want a definitive D&D (the Monopoly model)

[Pentius]

There is one big difference in the Football / Monopoly comparison.

Everyone agrees that Football is a sport but no version of Football has ever been confused for Baseball or called Baseball. Every tweak of Football has remained unquestionably not just still "a sport" but distinctly "football".

You know, I haven't checked, but I'm entirely certain that there are football fans out there, right now, who would be willing to tell you that the newest batch of rules tweaks made the game no longer football, or a sport, or that some league other than their favorite simply isn't football, or a sport.

Um, no.

Every edition of trivial pursuit works by moving around the board to land on spaces to answer questions in order to collect pie wedges.
Yes, the FLAVOR of the game changes, but the game itself is identical.

And every edition of D&D is a game where you take control of a character in a fantasy world and roll dice to collect experience points and loot. Face it, the differences are in the minutiae. We see them, because we have our faces in it, but to a casual observer? I doubt my family even realizes I've played different editions over the years.

 

[Frostmarrow]

That could have been stated better. The game always boils down to the same thing, heroes battling monsters, roleplaying, improvising and rolling a twenty-sided dice. So in that sense if you're playing 1E, PF or 4E we're all playing what is essentially the same game. In my eyes it doesn't matter if you're rolling a dexterity check or if your reflex defense is being attacked, you're still dodging a fireball. That common experience is more important than how you get there.

The rules are just different enough to make the games incompatible and require purchasing new materials. People shouldn't have to learn a new way to dodge a fireball every 10 years. For many the game is inherently nostalgic and they don't have the time or patience to relearn new rules. I think this pushes a lot of casual gamers away from the game. They figure out that the very complex rules they learned a decade ago have changed dramatically with a new 250 page rulebook that's totally incompatible with the one they grew up with. I just want to be in the dungeon dodging fireballs, I don't really care how I get there. Yeah, I do have preferences, but they tend to be influenced by which systems I've already spent money on and learned.

Sure we can all buy the old editions. The problem is that everyone has to agree on which edition to invest in and learn all the nuanced details of.

Color me intrigued. I'd like to see D&D the White Book - an infusion of the wisdom of thirty years of D&D. I think you make a good case.

 

[WheresMyD20]

Try modifying the rules of Monopoly (Monopoly 2012) or Football (Advanced Football). Make Monopoly players role 3d6 on a pentagon-shaped board or insist football fields be 150 yards - see how people take it.

Actually, football has gone through major rules changes throughout its history. It started as that game where you kick the ball ("association football", "soccer", or just "football" outside the US). At some point rules were added for picking up the ball with your hands and the game of football changed ("union football" or "rugby"). Then, some rugby players in the US added rules for throwing the ball forward and football changed again ("American football"). There's also an Australian version ("Australian football"). All four are different and distinct games, but they all share a common history. Which is the "definitive" version of football?

 

[catsclaw227]

... ("association football", "soccer", or just "football" outside the US) ... ("union football" or "rugby") ... ("American football") ... ("Australian football")

And each of these have had their own rule changes that have created controversy among their own fans. Sports-nerd blogs and forums on ESPN and NFL.com are full of loud troublemakers. (I watch, I'm a big-time Steeler fan, but I'm a lurker on the boards.)

 

[RedShirtNo5.1]

I think the best sports analogy is that of baseball and softball. They have common ancestry and would look similar to an observer who is not familiar with the games, but the differences can be considered critical by those playing.

 

[kiltedyaksman]

I've gotta be honest, I just don't know how some people can think that 4E was an effort to provide a more accessible game.

That they came out with the introductory set after the primary source books speaks to what a mess the edition was. Moreover, it was such an effort to attempt to create an adventure on your own. No thanks.

Also, they effectively did away with the low fantasy feel that D&D has always had - once that goes it doesn't feel like D&D to me anymore.

Having played all the editions except OD&D, I can say that there is a definitive D&D and it was Gygax's, not WotC's D&D.

There should be a definitive stripped down D&D based on an older model, then follow that will books that add crunch for those with the time to bother with it (I'm fine without, personally). People with busy lives and/or professional careers can't accomodate rules-bloat in their games. Strip the thing right down.

Seems to me they can take the hard way and try to create a definitive "Classic D&D" like the example above, or they can take the easy road and continue down the 4E line - and I just don't think there's critical mass for that.

I realize everyone is welcome to their own opinion. This is just my own.

 

[Dausuul]

I've gotta be honest, I just don't know how some people can think that 4E was an effort to provide a more accessible game.

Because it was. The designers said as much, explicitly. We can debate whether they succeeded or not, but that was what they were trying to achieve.

Having played all the editions except OD&D, I can say that there is a definitive D&D and it was Gygax's, not WotC's D&D.

I also have played all the editions except OD&D, and I can say that the definitive D&D is a mix of 4E Essentials and the Mentzer red box. This is true, because I say so.

 

[kiltedyaksman]

Don't tell me about the labour, just tell me about the baby. The game was not accessible to all and/or new players.

Mentzner's was Gygax's D&D

 

[Mark CMG]

Because it was. The designers said as much, explicitly. We can debate whether they succeeded or not, but that was what they were trying to achieve.

I think they achieved it. They seem to have devised a game that has a lot of people playing who would never play tabletop roleplaying games, probably by downplaying the roleplaying. In the process, however, they lost (more than?) half the people who enjoy tabletop roleplaying games.

I also have played all the editions except OD&D, and I can say that the definitive D&D is a mix of 4E Essentials and the Mentzer red box. This is true, because I say so.

heh heh

 

[GregoryOatmeal]

Edit - This was an accidental double posted. There's no way to delete it?