Is Magic a Setting Element or a Plot Device

[Janx]

On Japan, it's also worth noting they were also against adopting any western technology for a time. They effectively left themselves behind the technology curve.

So there is preceent for rejecting technological advancement.

On the topic of the Magical Revolution, I wonder this, can the population of magic users support such an endeavor?

Back in the 1E era, there was a section in the rules that described the ratio of 0th level commoners to leveled characters. I forget the exact math, google fails me, and I am too lazy to dig out the old DMG. However, the concept is that there ain't that many high level dudes around.

Just spit balling some numbers, the concept was like 1% of the populace was level 1, and 1% of that was level and so on.

Out of that "adventuring class" pool, only a fraction of that would be magic users.

It's easy to imagine our modern population numbers and think "whats the problem?" But medieval population levels are likely to be significantly lower.

As of 1400, England had about 6 million people, per a Google I found. One could extrapolate a ratio of useful magic users from that.

 

[Hussar]

They would be doing this, just not let it out of control into the private sector, as in US gov't building secret technology for the military or what have you, but not released into the public for public consumption. They would do it inhouse, if possible, and not let it lead into an industrial revolution. For that to happen an entire people and infrastructure is needed to support wide spread production processes, etc.

But really, as stated on a previous post, I'm not an advocate for the idea of magical industrial revolution. I'm not saying its not possible, I'm saying I could care less (not to sound snarky) - its not a plotline or setting development idea I am even remotely interested.

Please stop fixating on the idea of industrial revolution. That's beside the point.

The point is, the existence of the fantastic, if it's used as a setting element, changes the setting in a number of ways. If that means governmental control of magic, then fair enough. But, that change should be there if you want magic to be a setting element. If you simply ignore it, that's fair enough, there's nothing wrong with treating the fantastic as a plot point.

And, Janx, again, don't get fixated on wizards. For one, it's clerics and wizards are both issues. For another, there's so many other non-caster bits that could have serious impact on the setting.

Like I said, simply having infravision could markedly change how industry works.

 

[Pentius]

But really, as stated on a previous post, I'm not an advocate for the idea of magical industrial revolution. I'm not saying its not possible, I'm saying I could care less (not to sound snarky) - its not a plotline or setting development idea I am even remotely interested.

I am interested in it, though I'm also interested in other ideas. The big thing for me is when you get these world changing effects in the game, and the PC/NPC rules are the same, and maybe even demographics provided so that you know it's not necessarily something that wouldn't have come up before. It's one of those verisimilitude-breaking moments, like in a sci-fi movie set in the future where all the computers in their highly advanced spaceships have 80's style black and green graphics.

 

[Janx]

And, Janx, again, don't get fixated on wizards. For one, it's clerics and wizards are both issues. For another, there's so many other non-caster bits that could have serious impact on the setting.

don't get fixated on what we're fixated on. I said magic users, not wizards. magic user covers all those who use magic.

It is unclear how many "modern" ideas will occur to a medieval society with fantasy resources available. It took us a couple thousand years to invent the printing press or the the assembly line, or even the spinning wheel.

I reckon though, using slime jelly cubes in the sewer for waste disposal would be a pretty effective waste disposal idea.

 

[gamerprinter]

Sorry, I was 'fixated' on IR, because I thought that's where this conversation was at - a world like Eberron, has undergone some kind of industrial revolution because elements like transportation in Eberron resembles planes, trains and automobiles - I thought this is what you meant by magic as a setting device. I guess I was mistaken.

I mentioned pages earlier how I use magic as a setting device in Kaidan, however, it really isn't the same thing as you're describing. Kaidan's magical setting elements are nothing created by man/wizards/authority directly, rather they were engendered by a curse that founded the empire.

Kaidan is a basically a closed state, like Japan was from 1600 to 1868, but not because of imperial decree, so much as it's like Ravenloft, the land is surrounded by impenetrable mists - you can't get into the land even if you enter the mists, as Kaidan really exists in its own demi-planar bubble. Unless the 'dark powers' of Kaidan let you in, you can't get in. This to me is a setting device, not a plot element.

Cosmology and the afterlife are different in Kaidan then the rest of the D&D world, based on the reincarnation mechanic of the setting, and the soul eating engine of evil that is the cosmology of the setting. This is also tied to the social caste system. Since the reincarnation mechanic determines which social caste you reincarnate, not through any kind of social mobility in the setting. This was caused by the curse that created Kaidan, and not some active technological development by the inhabitants. This too is a setting element and not a plot device.

Also arcane tattoos though a magical thing applied by tattoo wizards has its own stigma as it does in Japan. Only an animal would wear a tattoo - at least in the eyes of any social caste that is not the Eta or tainted, bottom caste of society. Only a yakuza rogue would ever wear a tattoo. Because a tattoo is a magical thing, it could be considered a plot device, but because only a lowest class member would wear one, it is also a setting element.

However, I can already tell by the general gist of this thread, that that is not what what you're talking about. Rather you mean normal spells and magic items of the game becoming setting elements rather than plot devices - something more like Eberron (and that to me implies industrial revolution, and not a setting that I want to play in.)

I think magic can be a setting element, just in a completely different manner than you are discussing in this thread. As I said, much of Kaidan's uniqueness involves how magic is a setting device. But we are talking apples and oranges, here.

And [MENTION=6676736]Pentius[/MENTION] I don't begrudge your desire to create a possible industrial revolution based on magic as technology. Even though I'm not interested, I don't mean to suggest that others shouldn't be either. It is a viable subject for use in RPGs and you're welcome to discuss it and dissect it - that's a good thing. Its just not interesting to me.

 

[was]

i'm a fan of dark/gritty campaigns in low magic worlds

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, GP, I'm not really talking about that sort of high level stuff, because, mostly, that's just DM handwavium anyway. There's no way for anyone in the setting to have any real affect on that. You can't "dispel" the mists, nor can you utilize them in any fashion. It's a setting element in the true sense of the word - it's a mountain. You can't really do anything with a mountain itself.

I'm referring to the stuff that is accessible at a local level. Whether it's flora and fauna that could be tamed/bred/enslaved/assimilated or magical/fantastic effects with long lasting consequences. As I said, infravision is a poster child here. The ability to have a workforce that works 24/7 has an enormous impact on every level of society.

Never minding what you could do with slimes and jellies. Or flying creatures. Or the effect on society when you have members of that society with lifespans measured in centuries. Or undead. Or hyper-intelligent species (the average Mind Flayer is smarter than Einstein, imagine how smart a truly smart one would be).

When you take all these things together, they don't add up to Feudal Europe in my mind.

 

[Pentius]

Sorry, I was 'fixated' on IR, because I thought that's where this conversation was at - a world like Eberron, has undergone some kind of industrial revolution because elements like transportation in Eberron resembles planes, trains and automobiles - I thought this is what you meant by magic as a setting device. I guess I was mistaken.

We have been on about that, but a Magi-tech IR and Eberron are just examples of how it might play out. When I say I want my magic taken into account as a setting element, I don't mean I absolutely need me some trains.

-Snip about Kaidan-
However, I can already tell by the general gist of this thread, that that is not what what you're talking about. Rather you mean normal spells and magic items of the game becoming setting elements rather than plot devices - something more like Eberron (and that to me implies industrial revolution, and not a setting that I want to play in.)

I think magic can be a setting element, just in a completely different manner than you are discussing in this thread. As I said, much of Kaidan's uniqueness involves how magic is a setting device. But we are talking apples and oranges, here.

Yes and no. You're talking oranges, I'm just talking about liking fruit and about this one time I had an apple. Every specific instance Hussar and I have brought up in this thread, Wall of Iron, Darkvision, and every possible world change that flows from that are just examples of ways the fantastic was just not really considered in the default world. I'd probably be just fine with Kaidan in play, because an effort has been made to integrate the magic with the setting, to figure out how people might react to it, and use it(or with the tattoos, not use it).

I mean, a lot of it would even be handled with divorcing PC/NPC rules, or setting a demographic that had casters be so much rarer. The 1% of 1% thing in 1e doesn't bother me for instance, that sets the bar at pretty rare. But I crack open the 3e DMG to the demographics section and their example of a 200 person hamlet has a wizard, a bard, a druid and three clerics. It only gets worse as you get to bigger communities.

I don't begrudge your desire to create a possible industrial revolution based on magic as technology. Even though I'm not interested, I don't mean to suggest that others shouldn't be either. It is a viable subject for use in RPGs and you're welcome to discuss it and dissect it - that's a good thing. Its just not interesting to me.

And that's fair enough.

 

[gamerprinter]

On Japan, it's also worth noting they were also against adopting any western technology for a time. They effectively left themselves behind the technology curve.

So there is preceent for rejecting technological advancement.

And Kaidan takes the extra fanatic step in not only rejecting western technology, since the authorities of the setting are primarily the undead nobility who died during the Genpei war in support of the Taira clan - they don't want technology to advance beyond 1185 AD.

While I do include things like Yakuza, wood block printing, and very defined social caste system - stuff really from 17th - 18th century Japan, the government actually sends secret police hunting for heretical and traitorous technology.

The imperial court wants to maintain the frozen status quo in all things including technology.

 

[Janx]

Bear in mind, using the phrase Industrial Revolution is really only referring to the larger technological steps humanity made during that time. In reality, it was a follow-on to the Rennaisance. The truth is, man's been pretty busy in the last 500 years, compared to the prior 1500 years or so.

I think enslaving the darkvision populace for a 24x7 workforce would be an evil act. Something the bad guy society would do. Probably one run by evil genius mindflayers. Who use Beholders to cut the underground city out with their Disintegration beam eyes.

On the good guy side, I suspect the city watch would be happy to employ darkvision'd folks for the night shift. They'd be mor effective at spotting crime.

By wholesale 24x7 workforce? Why assume that's needed. with lower population levels, there's longer shipping times and overall less demand.

Case in point, the humble Spinning Wheel. When it was invented, a wheel spinner could do the work of 12 women using drop spindles. The complaint was that it put those people out of work. There would have been no complaint if the owner of the shop had bought 12 wheels and got a x12 boost to his output. But he didn't need that, so instead he lays off 11 workers. This happened in most every shop. As such, in some countries there was a huge protectionist backlash to the adoption of the spinning wheel, where even the Church condemned it.

Having greater ability to produce does not mean it is needed or consumed.

the point is to consider that any of these innovations will need to satisfy a demand, usually so people can work less, not harder. thus lowering costs.

As a note, people change things to cut costs or increase revenue. Cutting costs has almost no risk. Buying a spinning wheel and laying off 11 workers was a no risk move. As compared to buying 12 wheels and hoping you can sell all the yarn.

So I'd rather hire 1 giant to move blocks for my pyramid, than have a workforce banging outside my castle 24x7 plus pay for people to supervise them.