I don't get the dislike of healing surges

[Nagol]

I wonder if people who have such difficulty with the narration of healing surges had similar issues with a one minute round? Or, did people just sort of hand wave that away and ignore the fact that there were all sorts of things that were supposed to be happening in that round, but not movement (because disengaging from an enemy, or turning a flank had its own rules) and simply concentrate on the short period of time that the die roll actually represented?

The thing I had a problem with was AD&D had facing rules, but if you're dodging around, feinting, and trying for a telling blow, you'd likely be able to have a wider range of vision.

I always found it weird that D&D dropped facing at the same time it compressed a round to the point when it made narrative sense. In 6 seconds facing a potentially lethal situation, you probably are concentrating in a particular direction.

 

[billd91]

I always found it weird that D&D dropped facing at the same time it compressed a round to the point when it made narrative sense. In 6 seconds facing a potentially lethal situation, you probably are concentrating in a particular direction.

I don't know. I think by 3e, D&D had finally shed that vestige of mass wargame mentality where flanking actions and orientation of large groups of men mattered a lot. I suspect that mode of thought had a lot to do with why the differences between front facing, flanks, and rear mattered so much.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I wonder if people who have such difficulty with the narration of healing surges had similar issues with a one minute round? Or, did people just sort of hand wave that away and ignore the fact that there were all sorts of things that were supposed to be happening in that round, but not movement (because disengaging from an enemy, or turning a flank had its own rules) and simply concentrate on the short period of time that the die roll actually represented?

I had some issues with it, but it was far easier for me to explain than healing surges. For example I could see how the one attack I had in that 1 minute round was the "power shot", and it was just assumed a few feints and light strikes were occuring during the rest of the round (sort of like in a boxing match where a punch of throw away punches take place before the heavy hit or combo is thrown). But I still prefer a smaller round (between 10 to 20 seconds). The problem with healing surges is it forces me to take away things as a Gm. I like to interpret what 20 points of damage means for a 10th level fighter for example and give the player a description of that. As a player this is my preference as well. So I run into many of the issues people here have described. However I will say I have felt for a long time that a wound system would be much better if D&D embraced it for 5E. I like wounds because they represent a real injury and I like the idea of knowing my warrior is nursing a slice to his ribs or something to that effect.

 

[Alzrius]

This seems to me to imply that 4 hit points, which might be fatal for a 0-level or 1st level PC (and hence anything but a light wound), would be the merest scratch when delivered to a high level fighter.

Which means that something is badly wrong with healing magic in AD&D (and also, I think, healing rates, although I have seen it argued that a high level fighter takes much longer to recover to peak than a 0-level PC). Would you agree?

I'll refer you to my previous post:

There are some problem areas with this approach, to be sure. The converse of the above method of "damage as a percentage" is that magical healing actually becomes less effective at higher levels (e.g. a cure light wounds will restore that 1st-level commoner from dying to pristine condition...but for that 20th-level fighter it'll only heal scratches). Housecats can kill commoners with a swipe of the claws or two. High-level characters can fall off cliffs and reliably survive.

The thing is, most of these problems are either corner cases, or are easily ignored - they're the rough spots that come with that basic assumption about hit points, and I've long since accepted those problems as part-and-parcel of that way of looking at them.

To put it another way, you're right in pointing out that there's a problem, but I don't think that it's "badly wrong." I think it's a problem so small that it's easy to overlook without breaking the suspension of disbelief in the game. Healing surges, on the other hand, are too prominent to overlook, and utterly shatter my suspension of disbelief.

(And to head things off at the pass; no I don't think that magical healing in earlier editions of D&D is less prominent than healing surges are in 4E. I'm saying the problem of low-level healing magic being less effective as characters gain levels is a problem that's easy enough to overlook - unlike the problem of characters having at-will, non-magical bursts of regeneration.)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Re: 4Hp, Cats & Early D&D

I had 2 Maine Coon Cats- a kind of housecat- one 15lb, her bro, 18lb. They were runts- daddy was 25lbs and grampaw, 35lbs.

Had they not liked me, there could have been a problem, as illustrated by this report of a Cleveland, TX (near Houston) man who had a random encounter with a pissed-off feral cat in his house:

Feral Cat Attack Sends Man To Hospital - Houston News Story - KPRC Houston

Armed with a knife, having the advantage in reach, intelligence and body mass, he still wound up being rushed to the hospital via air ambulance in critical condition. The cat- stabbed at least 3 times- had to be euthanized. Not "died at the scene"- euthanized.

Sounds like AD&D to me...

 

[TheUltramark]

Re: 4Hp, Cats & Early D&D

I had 2 Maine Coon Cats- a kind of housecat- one 15lb, her bro, 18lb. They were runts- daddy was 25lbs and grampaw, 35lbs.

Had they not liked me, there could have been a problem, as illustrated by this report of a Cleveland, TX (near Houston) man who had a random encounter with a pissed-off feral cat in his house:

Feral Cat Attack Sends Man To Hospital - Houston News Story - KPRC Houston

Armed with a knife, having the advantage in reach, intelligence and body mass, he still wound up being rushed to the hospital via air ambulance in critical condition. The cat- stabbed at least 3 times- had to be euthanized. Not "died at the scene"- euthanized.

Sounds like AD&D to me...

so basically whatI get out of this is that fantasy RPG has a vastly superior health care system. While the cleric may charge for a clw or a csw, etc...it is immediate and on the spot. Wait until the clerics figure out how much profit they can make by getting in bed with the alchemists, the scroll writers, and the magic carpet drivers........

also coming soon new class: underwriter

 

[Hussar]

I had some issues with it, but it was far easier for me to explain than healing surges. For example I could see how the one attack I had in that 1 minute round was the "power shot", and it was just assumed a few feints and light strikes were occuring during the rest of the round (sort of like in a boxing match where a punch of throw away punches take place before the heavy hit or combo is thrown). But I still prefer a smaller round (between 10 to 20 seconds). The problem with healing surges is it forces me to take away things as a Gm. I like to interpret what 20 points of damage means for a 10th level fighter for example and give the player a description of that. As a player this is my preference as well. So I run into many of the issues people here have described. However I will say I have felt for a long time that a wound system would be much better if D&D embraced it for 5E. I like wounds because they represent a real injury and I like the idea of knowing my warrior is nursing a slice to his ribs or something to that effect.

Yeah, I can see that. My problem is, 1 minute is a heck of a long time. Heck, in boxing, a round is only 3 minutes. And you see a lot more than 3 punishing attacks in 3 minutes of boxing by any one boxer (well, usually ).

Thing is, why can't you interpret what 20 damage is to a 10th level fighter in 4e? Yes, you cannot interpret that exactly - you cannot specify that it's a deep gash to the thigh, for example. But, then again, you really never could. A deep gash to the thigh slows you down. It bleeds (typically quite a bit). It has other effects. Yet, in no version of D&D does 20 points of damage have any mechanical impact on the fighter, presuming he has HP left.

But, by and large, we ignored that and gave the fighter a deep gash anyway.

Thing is, in 4e, you can do the same thing. The fighter gets a deep gash on his leg. The Warlord shouts at him and allows him to spend a healing surge. We don't want to retcon but there's nothing saying that that deep gash just looked worse than it really was. Lots of blood came out, but, it really wasn't that deep. It's not that the deep gash goes away, it's just described in more detail.

I'd say that this covers about 90% of play.

 

[tomBitonti]

Re: 4Hp, Cats & Early D&D

I had 2 Maine Coon Cats- a kind of housecat- one 15lb, her bro, 18lb. They were runts- daddy was 25lbs and grampaw, 35lbs.

Had they not liked me, there could have been a problem, as illustrated by this report of a Cleveland, TX (near Houston) man who had a random encounter with a pissed-off feral cat in his house:

Feral Cat Attack Sends Man To Hospital - Houston News Story - KPRC Houston

Armed with a knife, having the advantage in reach, intelligence and body mass, he still wound up being rushed to the hospital via air ambulance in critical condition. The cat- stabbed at least 3 times- had to be euthanized. Not "died at the scene"- euthanized.

Sounds like AD&D to me...

Cat attacked the man in his bathroom, so they were effectively grappling. With the cat inside the man's reach. Slashing at a critter that is on you and raking is probably hard to do. Plus, the attack may have taken all of just a few seconds.

The arm wound looked rather long and possibly deep. Close to the wrist, and along the length; maybe a pretty bad bleeder.

Pretty much what to expect from a feral cat, which, at 20-35 points, is not the soft tubby that folks might expect. A feral cat would be like a brick, and would have terribly sharp claws. (Most folks have no experience with a fully developed intact male cat. They are not soft and round; they are intense, densely muscled, and can be rather aggresive.)

Also to say, this points out the hugely understated danger of bleeding wounds, and of the value of even medium leather against an attack such as this. Slicing / slashing attacks are very dangerous to a person armored in basically a thin shirt. (Before battlefield advances, blood loss is a huge killer. Getting to a wounded person very quickly and stopping bleeding makes a very big difference for battlefield survival.)

TomB

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

My point was that many people talk dismissively about how laughable it was that in AD&D, a 1st level wizard could be taken out by a cat.

Here, not only did a (admittedly largish) cat nearly kill a knife-wielding man- he would have died 30 years ago- it also survived its own knife wounds long enough so that they had to euthanize it. IOW, the game was not all that far off from reality...at least, not at that data point.

 

[BryonD]

Thing is, in 4e, you can do the same thing. The fighter gets a deep gash on his leg. The Warlord shouts at him and allows him to spend a healing surge. We don't want to retcon but there's nothing saying that that deep gash just looked worse than it really was. Lots of blood came out, but, it really wasn't that deep. It's not that the deep gash goes away, it's just described in more detail.

But then he healing surges *again* and what looked like a deep gash a few moments before now is absolutely completely gone. And this applies to any and every wound.

You can't take a small piece out of the larger context.

In 4E that doesn't apply to 90%, it is 100%.