Why the thought of D&D 5e makes me sad...

[Dausuul]

Mm... Monte's idea of what "Timmy cards" are is way off base. Just as others have unfairly maligned Monte in this, Monte is unfairly maligning Mark Rosewater.

The idea is that there are three types of Magic players. Timmy's main goal is to win in BIG AWESOME WAYS. Johnny's main goal is to win in creative unusual ways. And Spike's main goal is to win as often as possible.

A "Timmy card," then, is one that is BIG AND AWESOME. The usual Timmy card is a ginormous monster, but stuff like the "ultimatum" cards from Shards of Alara would also qualify. Whether it's a strong card for competitive play is irrelevant. (If it is, it's also a Spike card; the categories are by no means exclusive.) The goal is not to punish Timmy for liking what he likes, or to reward Spike for knowing better--it's to let each player get what he or she wants out of the game. Timmy's deck may not win as reliably as Spike's, but the wins it does produce will be BIG and they will be AWESOME, and Timmy will be happy.

Really, I don't think there are many professional designers who put deliberate "traps" into their designs. If there are, they ought to know better. No matter how careful you are to get everything balanced just so, there will inevitably be some character options (or CCG cards, or whatever) that are strong and others that are weak, and players will figure out what they are. Going out of your way to create them is silly.

 

[delericho]

The 3.5 fans were lucky. Because of the OGL, their game can live on. The GSL forbids a 'Pathfinder' for the 4e.

Fortunately, a "4e retro-clone" is possible under the OGL. It's just that cloning a 'living' system would be a major risk, because if you get it wrong WotC will (rightly) hammer you. But if they move on to 5e, they probably won't care so much.

onte Cook is one of the guys who thought building in intentional traps into a RPG would increase the fun.

As noted be others, no he didn't. He's been misrepresented in this matter.

He designed Book of Vile Deeds.

The Book of Vile Darkness was certainly a big disappointment. That said, I think that's the nature of the beast - a company like WotC simply can't take the gloves off enough to do justice to that topic.

All his in-house-products were magic centric and left non-spellcasters behind.

I was under the impression that the Wizard remains the single most-supported class in 4e? So Monte isn't exactly alone.

The mismatch in power between casters and non-casters in pre-3e is a feature of the rules as a whole - even in Core Rules Only play, the casters rule the roost after the first few levels.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Johnny's main goal is to win in creative unusual ways.

I am sooooooo Johnny it's not funny...it's hilarious.

Back when that Delusions-Donate deck was just getting popular, I had a black deck that was very unusual...and had actually gotten me to the quarterfinals it's first time in tournament. A buddy wanted to see how his version of the D-D deck played. He held off my creatures for a while, long enough to set off the combo. But I survived. I also survived the next 2 times he swung the combo that game. Ultimately, he had to beat me down with one of my own critters.

And back at virtually the dawn of tournament play here in Dallas, I had a deck built around Living Plane that nobody wanted to play against.

Actually, nobody much wanted to play me in playtest in general, since I was throwing a steady diet of things they'd never see...

 

[TanithT]

Not true

Very not true, considering where we first met.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

You don't hear the 1E & 2E crowd bellyaching because they can't pick up a new supplement at the local gaming store, do you?

Well, there's two reasons for that, and one is that they have the pre-3E clones to fall back on, lack of defense against which WotC might end up regretting in the future, because if there's a big enough desire, you can bet a "4E-compatible base ruleset" will pop up under the OGL or a similar license -- probably the OGL simply BECAUSE they have reign to use terms like Armor Class, Hit Points, saving throw, etc. Papers and Paychecks, commenting on OSRIC, said the terminology from the OGL is what made it possible, not the rule sets.

The second reason for no bellyaching is because the old books aren't leaving -- everyone currently has everything they possibly need to play 4E for MANY MANY years. I can personally attest that you can get by just fine without the DDI -- I've been playing a Dark Sun game for a year now with a PDF fill-in sheet and a power card creator program, and it's been working flawlessly.

In the end, I think the OGL has not only released D&D to the public for consumption, it's also muddied the waters sufficiently that any version of D&D from here on out will be available to the public to create material for after its demise.

A third reason is that the old AD&D rulebooks were so solidly built that some will likely survive the extinction of mankind....

The Auld Grump

 

[Hussar]

A third reason is that the old AD&D rulebooks were so solidly built that some will likely survive the extinction of mankind....

The Auld Grump

Now there's a fair bit of truth.

Could you imagine how much those books would cost now to produce at those production levels? Gack! They might not have been the prettiest D&D books out there, but, damn those things could TAKE a beating.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I'll be happy if they do announce 5E. After being called a grognard and made out to be some sort of curmudgeon that doesn't want change, it's good to see that 4E wasn't as wildly successful as some made it out to be and that it did split the community in a substantial way.

I had followed every edition of D&D from back to the basic set. Yet because I didn't like 4E I was derided and called a grognard and other such rubbish. It was irritating to say the least.

I gave 4E a real shot. Bought the books, ran a few modules. Got up to lvl 12 with one group of characters and lvl 6 with the other. Just didn't like the game. And was unhappy with what WotC did to the magic system. Then this turned into what is now known as an edition war. It really shouldn't have been.

This was never about loving 3E or everything about 3E. It was about not liking 4E. I think if WotC had made a good 4E game keeping what was good about the D&D system and adding to it to make it better, people would have been pretty happy with the game and went with the new edition as much they did 3E. 4E threw just about everything, whether we loved it or hated it, out the window and went in an entirely new direction so you didn't even really feel like you were playing D&D other than the name on the covers.

I was all for improving D&D. I was looking forward to a new edition. I knew everything in 3E wasn't good or perfect. High level play and preparation time was insane. Magic needed to reigned in some. Physical damage dealers needed more perks. I understood all that. I just didn't understand throwing about the baby with the bathwater when you already had a good thing going.

If 5E does get announced and returns to D&D's roots, this will be yet another example like the New Coke: you don't mess with what people like.

You want to make physical damage dealers happy and improve them, then do it.

But don't drop a steaming pile of dragon dung on caster players while you're doing it. We spend money on the game too and you should have known caster players were not going to be happy with a watery soup, modular magic system that made the wizard alike to every other class. That was one of the poorest game designer decisions I've ever seen was marginalizing caster players in the new design process.

 

[Pentius]

A third reason is that the old AD&D rulebooks were so solidly built that some will likely survive the extinction of mankind....

The Auld Grump

Heh, I can vouch for that. I've still got a full core set of AD&D1e, which survived being in my possession from the time I was about 4-5 years old, and the most damage they've got is still where the previous owner slapped a (rather sweet) lady&tiger sticker on the front of the PHB and scribbled notes for an Assassin inside the front cover. Any book that survives extended ownership by a young boy wouldn't gain any appreciable durability by being made of steel.