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Take the Narrative Wounding Challenge.

So, you disagree with Bedrockgames that hits must be physical? Note, I wasn't the one who brought this up. Those on the "serious wound" side of the fence did.
You mentioned corner cases. I consider this an EXTREME corner case. But, yes, I would disagree with the claim that they "MUST" be physical.

To be picky, I'd say that any "hit" (and some misses) would be VERY MUCH a physical hit against a L1 commoner and more HP represents a range of differences between the character in question and a L1 commoner.

The two characters in the movie would have killed dozens of commoners over the course of that fight......

I probably missed it earlier, but, why can't I describe a 20 HP wound as a "deep gash" (to use BRG's example above) in 4e? It has identical mechanical effects in both editions. They both result in a reduced abilty to continue the adventure. The only difference would come in if neither group had access to magical healing. The 4e character would regain his healing surge the next day, while the 3e character would take a couple of days to regain his full HP.
Well, you can, but most people defending surges have been describing everything as being treatable with band-aids, so I just rolled with that.

As I HAVE pointed out in other points in this and/or the other thread, you can INSTEAD describe ANY wound you want. You get rid of the "no wounds" problem and replace it with "now fighters can think away neck gashes" problem. Not any better, but yes, different.
 

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I disagree with this addition. I see no problem in, for example, narrating that a Fighter takes, say, 10HP of damage and it is described as a gash to the arm, and then having him second wind and regain 10HP of metaphysical HP. He's at his maximum HP, because of additional metaphsyical HP, but the gash is still there.
Well, but the root of the disagreement seems to be that you are talking about a gash to the arm and expecting that to cover everything.

If a fighter receives a "gash to the arm" I'm fine with ignoring it and whether the cleric checks off a cure or not is not important to the narrative in that case.

But if a hill giant scores a critical hit with a club for 70% of a fighters HP, I'm going to describe that as broken ribs and a collapsed lung. Yes, if I was going for "reality" that guy isn't just out of the fight, his sword swinging days are probably over even if he lives another 50 years. But for heroic fiction it is common for the characters to shrug off TERRIBLE wounds just long enough to win the day.

That guy, in my game, can fight or flee as the player chooses. But then he needs help that he can't provide for himself.

If 4E requires me to limit wounds to gashes on the arm, then I'm not going to play 4E.
If 4E requires me to let fighters think their ribs back together, then I'm not going to play 4E.
 

That you can not grasp that fundamental element of this conversation speaks volumes.

So, can you give me what I want? Or do I just get more point missing straw men? (And if you truly believe they are not straw men, then that means you are sincere, yet speaking from a position of total lack of comprehension of the issue.)

You know, I tried to be nice, but my conversation with you is over. I have had enough of this from you.

The fact that you've decide to be demanding, rude, and condescending does speak volumes.
 

I probably missed it earlier, but, why can't I describe a 20 HP wound as a "deep gash" (to use BRG's example above) in 4e? It has identical mechanical effects in both editions. They both result in a reduced abilty to continue the adventure. The only difference would come in if neither group had access to magical healing. The 4e character would regain his healing surge the next day, while the 3e character would take a couple of days to regain his full HP.

The issue for me here isn't the healing surge being regained the next day, but the HP potentially being recovered immediately by mundane means during combat. So the difference that comes in is the deep gash I described to the player vanishes because of a healing surge. It just doesn't work for me. I see that it works for you and for many others here, and that is perfectly fine. But this is simply something that truly bothers me about 4E.

However, that does make it a pretty small corner case - a group with no magical healing.

I don't regard it as an edge case. Parties blow through their magic healing all the time. So this would definitely come up.
 

Just a general comment about the tone. I think both sides could really be a little more restrained (I see blatant insults and hidden snipes on both sides in this discussion....it makes me not want to defend the posts of people I agree with and makes me avoid responding to posts of people I disagree with). People have all made good points, no reason to risk locking the thread down just because someone gets under your skin.
 

Well, but the root of the disagreement seems to be that you are talking about a gash to the arm and expecting that to cover everything.

If a fighter receives a "gash to the arm" I'm fine with ignoring it and whether the cleric checks off a cure or not is not important to the narrative in that case.

But if a hill giant scores a critical hit with a club for 70% of a fighters HP, I'm going to describe that as broken ribs and a collapsed lung. Yes, if I was going for "reality" that guy isn't just out of the fight, his sword swinging days are probably over even if he lives another 50 years. But for heroic fiction it is common for the characters to shrug off TERRIBLE wounds just long enough to win the day.

That guy, in my game, can fight or flee as the player chooses. But then he needs help that he can't provide for himself.

If 4E requires me to limit wounds to gashes on the arm, then I'm not going to play 4E.
If 4E requires me to let fighters think their ribs back together, then I'm not going to play 4E.
The gash was just an example. Your broken ribs example works fine for me, too. I'm gonna take a shot at explaining why, and I'll use the ribs for the whole thing.

Things in this section are edition neutral unless otherwise specified.

By the rules, If your Fighter takes 70% of his HP damage from the giant, and has 30% left, he requires no medical aid. He is fine. He can keep fighting for now, he can keep adventuring, bedrest will restore those HP even if no one so much as glances at the wound. Even if they poke at it with their little fingers. Even if the Fighter wants to spend the next hour doing cartwheels.

The broken ribs and collapsed lung are narrative constructs that the rules themselves neither create nor support. Does this mean don't make them? No. But it does mean that if you make this sort of narrative construct, it is your responsibility to make it work. You can require the character to get medical aid. You can restrict him from his nightly practice session where the Monk punches him in the chest 50 times. You can do pretty much whatever you want, your group just has to be okay with it.

But the rules are not responsible for your broken ribs. If the rules provide that you can be at max HP(full fightin' capacity) without medical attention, and they do, it's up to you to make that narrative work. You get the medical attention anyway, or you narrate bravely pressing on with broken ribs, or resting for a week and having them knit together or whatever. Really, just whatever you are fine with. But the rules aren't telling you you have to think them broken ribs back together because the game never told you had broken ribs. The game, not being a thing with the capacity to react to situations outside itself, will trudge on. It's up to you to figure out how you want to narrate the situation, whether you do it within the rules or by going outside them, or just flat ignoring them. If you are willing to go as far as making the broken ribs and requiring the character to get medical treatment, not beat on his chest all night screaming like King Kong, or what have you, but you balk at the end and say he healed his ribs by thinking real hard, and you just don't like this narration, the system really has nothing to do with it. In this hypothetical, you have dropped the ball.

4e does not require you to limit narration to gashes on the arm any more than previous editions did. It does not require you to let your Fighters think their wounds closed any more than previous editions did. It requires you to handle your own narrative, even when you take it outside the rules, just like previous editions did.

EDIT: 1,000th post, woo!
 
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4e does not require you to limit narration to gashes on the arm any more than previous editions did. It does not require you to let your Fighters think their wounds closed any more than previous editions did. It requires you to handle your own narrative, even when you take it outside the rules, just like previous editions did.

EDIT: 1,000th post, woo!

You may have a point with some of the specific elements of narration and the rules do the game and lack of significant effects of damage beyond the obvious, but my agreement pretty much ends there. I believe there is a significant difference brought to the game with surges and overnight, no-intervention full healing that does affect the narrative structure of the game compared to previous editions.
And to tie back in to the OP, I don't have to like that difference.
 

Sorry but no, I spoke in general terms for a specific reason.

Any "quote" that I make then has the tendency to be viewed as an attack on that person's position.
Isn't disagreeing with somebodies position a relevant and useful way of deeply discussing an issue? I disagree with Hussar's premise. I have even vigorously "attacked" his position on this premise. I have not and will not attack Hussar because I respect him and all the posters on these forums. That doesn't mean though I'm not allowed to disagree with what they say. As such, surely you should feel free to discuss anyone's opinion.

This tends to derail conversations, which is not my purpose.
But calling some positions disingenuous which does attack the poster rather than their points is fair and not likely to derail? That I'm not so sure about.

If someone wants to discuss the general statement that "some seem to give the rules some aspects that they never possessed." Then I'm all for it.
You introduced this idea in general rather than specifically referring to the possible confusion of interpreting different mechanics differently. I am merely trying to get you to specifically highlight which rules and which aspects in regards to hps/surges/narrative space etc. - incredibly on topic I think and your opinion would add to the discussion.

I'm not interested in a pissing match.
Huh? When is vigorous but respectful discussion a pissing match? Perhaps it that written tone is more difficult to gauge than in person. [Even still, I have not seen any nastiness on this thread.]x
[Or perhaps I should have read the rest of the thread before responding to your post]

In addition, this thread has already been derailed enough. The OP of this thread was to give examples of recoverable combat injuries that can not be represented using the 4e rules. I'd now like to return you to your original thread... LOL
The thread has not substantially deviated from the central discussion of hit points/surges/narrative/differences between editions in regards to. If however you are seeking to throw out the fairly indiscriminant "disingenuous" net and then not back it up with valid points, then that would be a little rude making many people wonder if their fairly and honestly given responses are being blithely attributed as disingenuous. As far as I can see, the thread has been about specific examples as well as a deeper discussion as to a more general basis and understanding of why some have issues while others do not.

If someone wants to discuss why 4e does these things "differently" and ways that a DM can inject those things into their games, I'm game for that on a forked thread.
Sure...or of course if people want to discuss Hussar's premise for this thread in general or specific, then here would seem the place to do that.

I've already exposed the context for my opinion somewhere else if someone is interested. That exposition starts here.
I'll have a look there but would it not be good for discussion if you highlighted the most salient points on this thread instead? Whatever the case, I would like to discuss the topic further with you and others.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 
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Herreman, what specifics?
To further clarify. There have been specific examples such as mine. There has then been a slightly more abstract analysis of explaining why there is a narrative gap (which in my opinion has been adequately shown an not reasonably refuted). Think of this as like an example being a specific numerical solution ( x = 8 ) while the slightly less specific but no less valid analysis describes a particular mechanical relationship ( y = 2x + 5 ). Both the specific and the more abstract general are relevant to the discussion at hand, and in fact I think the discussion looking at the mechanical relationships involved is more valuable at explaining WHY rather than just looking for just a WHAT (which is unfortunately what I think you are getting bogged down in looking for when most other posters are wanting to describe the WHY).

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

This is all a degree of selection. The game is "mute" about narrative in all editions. It has always been up to the DM and the players to make the "narrative" their own, if they so choose.
I think there are two narratives going on here. There is the immediate and specific one in regards to rolling a result and describing it, but there is also the overall narrative that is garnered where the general statistics of the mechanics shine through (the relevant one being that a PC in 4e RAW will never take a serious but non-fatal wound when a PC looks back over there multi-level many-year career. The most they ever copped was healed by the next day).

I'll give a 3.x example to illustrate:
You can have a DM that tells you, "Roguey McRouge that hit just knocked you on your ass. The gash left on your side is bleeding (take 10 points of damage and you're prone)." Or you could have the one that said, "Hit, take 10 points of damage and you're prone." Game effects are the same whether I describe them "narratively" or not.

After the fight ends, the rogue character has no healing potions, and he doesn't have a heal stick. So he decides to make camp. He curls up under a tree to rest. The next morning he wakes up and has full hit points. How is that?
Because a 10hp wound is not enough to force a massive damage roll and from your description was not enough to put the character into negatives. As such, aside from being knocked prone, the character was still acting at capacity (and so describing anything more serious than a barely distracting flesh wound is not mechanically supported by the rules).

He had a bleeding gash and hit points damage, did his "wounds" all of a sudden close up? No, he's a 10th level character and after a rest he regains his level in hit points. Whether that "wound" was described as "physical" or not is irrelevant, after a nights rest he regains his level in hit points. No magic, no narrative connection to how his "wounds" are not there anymore. According to your definition that would be stupid.
As BryonD said before, hit points are part "damage" and part "abstract" so your analysis does not seem to disagree with his. My own way of narratively describing this is that the gash is starting to heal and causes the PC no further distraction or discomfort (but you are going to have a nice scar there in a week or so's time).

According to my definition it makes perfect sense and can be easily supported by the "narrative". "Off screen" the rogue binds his "wounds", stretches his muscles, and takes some food before curling up under the tree, the next morning he is still sore, but his "wounds" won't affect his main purpose, "Finding the Eye of Rah."
This is true for a mechanically speaking superficial wound in both editions. What I suggest you do is mechanically revisit this exact same circumstance, except this time the 10hp wound takes the PC down to -5hp (as per Hussar's guidelines). This is where I believe several posters have shown that their is a significant difference between the resulting narrative in 3e and 4e. I would be interested by your analysis.

The reason is that the "wounds", a term the DM is providing not that the mechanics are forcing on us, are part of a "pool" of resources called Hit Points. Hit Points represent all kinds of things that let you keep on fighting (physical and "metaphysical"). This has ALWAYS BEEN the definition of HP. In mechanical terms HP has never had much to do with "health" in the classical sense.
Except that probability-wise, an untended PC knocked into the negatives will almost certainly die. This is significantly different in 4e under the same circumstances.

The disconnect I'm seeing when people complain about this issue is what I'll call selective reasoning. I can find a "reason" for magic to heal "wounds". I can find a "reason" for my level to heal "wounds". But it is a bridge too far finding a "reason" for SPENT healing surges to heal "wounds".
Or to be more specific, you have magical healing and you have natural healing. Spending surges may be magical or it may be non-magical in nature. When it is non-magical in nature, you can get some weird (or technically I suppose the term is "absurd") results. This bothers some players while not others (as this thread HAS clearly demonstrated).

In 4e, if a character is "wounded" in battle, DM terms, and he spends his second wind, his "wounds" don't all of a sudden disappear. Just like the wounds of the 3.x rogue didn't miraculously disappear the next morning. That character is "narratively" digging deep and using reserves of "guts" to keep fighting. Mechanically he simply uses his second wind, SPENDS a healing surge, and keeps fighting. That healing surge is SPENT until an extended rest. His "reserves" are depleted for the rest of the day.
Fine. In all examples, the character is acting at capacity. As such, even though the "bloodied" condition can be used as a springboard for certain powers and abilities, a character in 3e or 4e who has positive hit points is functionally at capacity regardless of the damage they have taken. To describe them in this case in either 3e or 4e as seriously wounded would not be backed up by the mechanics of the game. The only possible exception to this is a failed massive damage fortitude save resulting in instant death.

To take it one step further, "narratively" you have even more options in combat. When the cleric uses Healing Word you can describe it as actually closing wounds because it is "magic". When the warlord screams at you with Inspiring Word and tells you to, "stop sniveling, and get back in the fight", you can describe it as the shame of not measuring up. You dig into your reserves and keep fighting. At the end of the fight you take a short rest to bandage wounds, stretch your muscles, and catch you breath. You SPEND healing surges to do all those things. Then, you are ready for the next challenge. You've used up "reserves" during that short rest. Resources that are no longer available for the remainder of the day. You want to have "wounds", that is what SPENT healing surges can "narratively" represent. It is up to you, just like the "wound" was "narratively" up to you.
But again there is a glaring hole here in your argument. What about damage that takes character's into the negatives and knocking them out? I don't think many would have any disagreement with the reasonableness of what you have described. Except that you have completely avoided the mechanical situation where people are saying there is a difference between 3e and 4e: when PCs go into the negatives.

At the end of the day you settle to make camp, you treat your "wounds", clean out your bandages, take some food, get a well deserved rest. In the morning you are still sore, but it won't impede your main purpose, "Finding the Eye of Rah."
That's OK if all you want in adventuring is milk, cookies and appropriately spooned out treasure parcels but what if you want the depletion of certain resources to have a more significant impact on the adventure where the PCs have tough decisions over a period of days? 3e RAW can "sort of" support this style of play depending upon what magic the DM has handed out as well as the types of PCs involved. 4e RAW as you highlight actively doesn't support this (although it can be house-ruled).

After the adventure and as part of the campaign, the DM can "narratively" describe the long recuperation period if he so chooses. The game rules do not impede that, the same way that they do not impede the DM and players coming up with their own narrative for the "wounds" in the first place.

That is why I don't have a problem with the narrative at all.
And good for you. When you discuss the negative hp situation further, you may see where some posters DO have an issue with the spectrum of possible resulting narratives.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

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