High-Tech Forces vs. High-Magic Forces

[Umbran]

So the basics here is a big powerful army vs a small specialized one...who wins?

I would go with the tech army on this one. While special forces can be very effective, they don't singlehandedly win wars without backup. Attrition and logistics start to set in at some point.

Well, hold on there a second.

You think the old "scry, buff, teleport" on a few national leaders and generals wouldn't end the conflict quickly?

Our special forces don't use those tactics because they *can't* teleport, and because our civilization has some traditions against that sort of thing. The fantasy folks, if they're coming from a D&D-style world, don't have that. Quite the opposite - they come from a tradition where eventually you have to confront the enemy leader personally.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You think the old "scry, buff, teleport" on a few national leaders and generals wouldn't end the conflict quickly?

Nope- I think that would just get the more belligerent & hawkish elements in world governments the license to win "by any means necessary."

IOW, retaliatory assassination would be the least of the invaders' worries as world gov't's unleash weapons they don't admit to having, and weapons developers get free rein to do live testing on the battlefield.

If, for example, some nation actually has orbit-to-surface lasers, the magical invaders may be in for a rude surprise...

Lord Necrozian: "The mundane warriors of this world couldn't hit a Tarrasque at this dis..."*ZZZAAAP*

 

[Stalker0]

Well, hold on there a second.

You think the old "scry, buff, teleport" on a few national leaders and generals wouldn't end the conflict quickly?
.

It would have a powerful and immediate impact. The magic users would win the initial battles imo.

But with satellites and surveillance technology we aren't exactly in the dark ourselves.

"Sir, we have the goblin general on satelite".

"Very good, send some cruise missiles and take care of it".


Also, since many world leaders have those underground bunkers, would scry even be able to find them?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It would have a powerful and immediate impact.

Actually, given the modifiers to the scrying rolls, it would have a powerful but delayed impact. They'd have to get some actual intelligence on their targets first if they wanted any real chance of succeeding at scrying...and its not like a goblin could just walk into a bar and casually chat someone up, "So, tell me about this...Oh Bar Mar...who leads this country. He sounds a fascinating hum...man"

And that's still assuming that magic works perfectly in our world... What if Alter Self just made you look like Lemmy Kilmister? Or Teleport worked more like Blink?

 

[tomBitonti]

I'm thinking that a little teleportation or invisibility could go a long, long way toward defeating a modern force. Illusions, mind-reading, and mind-control could also work wonders.

Ah, I was waiting for folks to bring up issues other than simple firepower.

Modern forces seem to have huge advantages in terms of communications and control, which cannot be emulated except by a few spell casters. Also, modern weaponry seems vastly more powerful than most simple damage dealing spells and weapons.

On the other hand, magic forces seem to have other advantages in terms of gathering information, hiding, and generally engaging in subterfuge. How much damage could a group of mind-reading form shifting mages do? How would modern forces keep a shadow dancer out of a munitions depot?

Also, until they got a grip on it, ghoul fever (from raised undead) might cause a lot of problems. Certain other summoned monsters (e.g., a fire elemental, or some demons) might be a hard problem. A summoned devil which is tasked with entering an enemy base and killing as many as possible, might do a very large amount of damage.

TomB

 

[Jack7]

Personally I would in no way want to be on the side of magic when it's magic versus modern technology.

Nor would I in any way want to be on the side of magic when it's groups of creatures led by individuals trained in magic versus groups of people trained in technological systems, advanced weapon systems (either personal or integrated), command and control systems, etc. and individuals trained in modern war tactics.

If the point of such a war is to kill the enemy and someone offered me the chance to fight in either Army then the thought of being in the magic army would make me laugh.

If my life personally depended on such a choice then magic is a fantasy war tactic and method.

I'd never risk my life on such a thing. Or a war on such a supposed set of weapons and methods.

It's a fun theoretical discussion but if it ever could happen, and it were my fight, I'd bet on man and his war-methods any day. And I suspect it wouldn't be much of a war either.

 

[MortalPlague]

Technology has tanks. Magic has iron golems.

I think the debate is more fun if the magic side has a proliferation of potent spellcasters.

 

[Umbran]

"Sir, we have the goblin general on satelite".

"Very good, send some cruise missiles and take care of it".

With all due respect to our military forces, I think recent history has shown that our modern imaging techniques are not particularly good at finding particular individuals who don't want to get shot or blown up - those still seem to require more mundane intelligence gathering techniques.

Let's assume, however, that the horde leader isn't trying to hide from satellite imagery. It is still very difficult to identify individuals, and there's a delay between when you snap the picture, and the arrival of the munitions - and individuals tend to move around.

But, more importantly, you're the head of a fantasy horde - that means your pretty badass (have lots of hit points, and maybe Improved Evasion) and you fail to be stupid. You've got powerful spellcasters, and are used to looking out for the enemy sending dragons and whatnot. You're telling me you don't have folks keeping air elementals and the like in the skies whacking anything bigger than a goose out of the sky?

Also, since many world leaders have those underground bunkers, would scry even be able to find them?

Nothing in the d20 SRD spell description says it'd be stopped by any particular material.

Actually, given the modifiers to the scrying rolls, it would have a powerful but delayed impact. They'd have to get some actual intelligence on their targets first if they wanted any real chance of succeeding at scrying...and its not like a goblin could just walk into a bar and casually chat someone up, "So, tell me about this...Oh Bar Mar...who leads this country. He sounds a fascinating hum...man"

Knowing nothing about him makes it a +10. But even having secondhand knowledge (like a newspaper) makes it only a +5. Getting an image of him (see again, that newspaper) puts that down to a +3. The newspaper won't have a lot on generals, true. But actual national leaders should be pretty easy to find.

And that's before you get to using any other divinations to get information about the targets.

And that's still assuming that magic works perfectly in our world... What if Alter Self just made you look like Lemmy Kilmister? Or Teleport worked more like Blink?

Well, then of course magic loses. The discussion is trivial and uninteresting if either side is significantly nerfed.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But even having secondhand knowledge (like a newspaper) makes it only a +5.

They still have to acquire the newspaper- tough if they bust through dimensions in Yellowstone, easy if they pop up on the LA strip- and recognize that the articles & pictures are of the kinds of targets they want.

If the first periodical they grab is People or Variety, the entertainment world may take a heavy hit...

Well, then of course magic loses.

I don't think it's quite that bad. Not everyone will recognize Lemmy. Blink, while not as good a Teleport, is still going to wreak havoc with mundane targeting.

The key is how much magic gets screwed up and how...like using spells in a wild magic zone.

And my question also begs the other- how does mundane tech interact with magic?

If none of what we have could be considered a "magic weapon" certain Protection spells and special units would be über potent. A summoned creature immune to normal weapon damage may keep coming even after you hit it with a Hellfire missile.

The *ahem* devil is in the details.

 

[kinem]

My point is that the interactions between magic and tech are unknowns.

You have missed the point of specifying a rule system - in this case 3.5 ed D&D - to use for the exercise. Obviously, if there are no rules, there is no way to compare anything. There is no such thing as real magic so it's not like we can use that as a base.

You are wrong about the blessing tho. Last I checked, there are alot of clerics around, and most people would probably think if a blessing if confronted with a devil.

For one thing, in order to turns weapons 'good', you need the actual paladin spell bless weapon, not just some prayer by a cleric. It's not even a cleric spell.

For another, there are no actual spellcasting clerics in the modern world, just a bunch of scholars who have in the scenario such great misconceptions about knowledge(religion) that they don't even know about the gods who grant spells.