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Chris Perkins doesn't use Passive Insight

MarkB

Legend
2. NPC always has to roll Bluff vs PC Passive Insight, if fail then PC auto-detects lies with their lie-radar EVEN IF THEY HAVE NO REASON TO BE SUSPICIOUS.

The PCs being in a situation which gives them no reason to be suspicious would seem, at least in my view, to be an appropriate reason to apply a Circumstance penalty to Insight checks, passive and active alike - potentially a hefty one, if this is a person the PCs have good reason to trust.

It isn't any reason to suddenly switch off the highly-trained senses with which the players have chosen to equip their characters.
 

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The PCs being in a situation which gives them no reason to be suspicious would seem, at least in my view, to be an appropriate reason to apply a Circumstance penalty to Insight checks, passive and active alike - potentially a hefty one, if this is a person the PCs have good reason to trust.

It isn't any reason to suddenly switch off the highly-trained senses with which the players have chosen to equip their characters.

I think this just illustrates that a social skill by itself has no hard and fast absolutes. The DM should simply work to keep player and PC perceptions of the situation in sync as much as possible and when something isn't logical the NPCs act appropriately. I just don't think you can argue about what makes sense for PCs, the only reasonable arguments there are about how much RP the players are willing to do. If they're bound and determined to meta-game all the time there's not a lot anyone can do about it.
 

S'mon

Legend
The problem with the way you suggest running things is that basically social skills are worthless, and for any character without some kind of direct mechanical reason to have a decent cha or wis there's no benefit to those stats at all. You will definitely need to explain to the players that they should not bother with giving their characters any kind of abilities related to social skills to be fair.

I don't know how you can get that from what I'm saying. I read through Bluff & Insight in my PHB last night, and as far as I can tell I am running them precisely RAW (except that I set my DCs slightly differently, but similar ballpark numbers).
 

Balesir

Adventurer
1. GM speaks in character as NPC - player has opportunity to tell if NPC is lying.
I think there is a pitfall, here. Unless there are actual inconsistencies or fallacies known to the player in what the DM says, the player has an opportunity to tell if the DM is lying, not the NPC. In cases where the NPC is simply ignorant of developments, or is him/herself deceived, this may be particularly relevant. Insight, to me, is skill in "reading" another - spotting tells, body language and natural physiological reactions to stress and deceit. It will not detect an untruth told by a character who sincerely believes what they are saying to be true. That is, it will detect when the character is lying, not when the DM is lying (or otherwise under stress or deceiving the players).

2. NPC always has to roll Bluff vs PC Passive Insight, if fail then PC auto-detects lies with their lie-radar EVEN IF THEY HAVE NO REASON TO BE SUSPICIOUS. I find this incredibly implausible, it ignores real-world social dynamics. It also means players never have to engage their own grey matter. It really sticks in my craw.
I don't find this implausible at all. I have occasionally noticed when people are being evasive or even deceitful, even when I had no particular reason to be suspicious; I suspect that many parents and teachers have done likewise, and possibly many in business jobs and so on, too. There are some people who flush bright red when they tell even a small lie - this represents a natural "trait" that gives penalties to Bluff that D&D characters don't have!

If a person is deliberately trying to deceive, they will give out measurable physiological and possibly physical signals as a result of the stress. The only questions are how subtle they manage to make those signs (represented by their Bluff skill, modified by how "big" a lie they are trying to tell) and how good the recipient is at detecting those signs (their Insight skill, modified by how alert and suspicious they are). Some of the circumstances of each case may be obvious - and can be represented by die/DC modifiers. Other circumstances will be unknown - and are represented by the die roll.

3. NPC makes check vs passive Insight vs PC. If player seems the slightest bit less than totally oblivious, the DM informs them they can roll an active Insight check.
The way I run it is the NPC makes the bluff vs. Passive Insight check, yes. If they fail, I tell the player that something seems amiss - they are nervous/seem evasive/look guilty or whatever. If the player asks for an Insight check, I roll it for them (since the unknown factors represented by the die roll are, to them and their character, just that - unknown). Otherwise, I give no overt indication that there is reason to doubt the NPC - in fact, I try to do as good a job of "lying in character" as I can.

Compare to PC trying to deceive NPC - either the GM lets it pass if the NPC has no reason to be suspicious, or the GM is a stickler and forces a Bluff check for everything. Even then, the PC only has to beat NPC Passive Insight to succeed - one dip, not the three the NPC had to get through.
As DM I have a priviledged position; I have to know most of what the PCs do and plan in order to perform my "DM-ly functions". I therefore know things the NPCs don't. If there are facts that I know the NPC knows that what the PCs claim contradicts, the NPC at a minimum gets an Insight roll (or just gets defensive). If the PC's roll beats their Insight, though, they are oblivious - but the PC always has to roll, to account for the "stress signals" that they will inevitably be giving off.

I think there's a place for passive insight in certain circumstances, but normally as DM I give plenty of in-character signs an NPC is lying,
As I mentioned, I explicitly don't (unless, perhaps, the NPC is unusually stupid and trying to bluff, anyway). I try to do as "professional" a job as possible to maintain the "illusion" in play. If I fail, so be it but I will probably at least try to have the players ignore a lapse that is, after all, mine, not the NPC's. I will also make it clear that what Insight detects is whether or not the NPC believes what they are saying to be true - it's not some sort of objective truth finder.

and if the player isn't even suspicious enough to request an Insight check I don't feel obligated to have the NPC roll Bluff, just as a PC wouldn't have to roll Bluff vs a non-suspicious NPC.
This strikes me as unfair. The player does not have the feedback available to the character. In a study of what job interviewers took note of when assessing the value/veracity of interviewees' responses, the proportions were as follows:

"Visual" cues - body language, etc. = 55%
"Vocal" cues - tone, intonation, inflection, etc. = 38%
"Verbal" cues - what was actually said = 7%

If this is accurate, what the player has available to be suspicious about will be, even if in-character speaking is used throughout, 7% of the actual information available to the character - plus a bunch of spurious feedback based on a human being only peripherally connected to the character their PC is actually dealing with. Even assuming what is desired is a simulation, that's not what I would call even a mediocre simulation.
 

I don't know how you can get that from what I'm saying. I read through Bluff & Insight in my PHB last night, and as far as I can tell I am running them precisely RAW (except that I set my DCs slightly differently, but similar ballpark numbers).

Well, OK, maybe I don't quite understand. It sounded to me like you're saying you're arguing for not using social skills at all in these situations and leaving it to the players to decide to believe or not believe without benefit of a check.

Overall I'd side with Balesir. The PLAYERS have in many respects far less information to go on and most of the more telling kinds of information really aren't provided by the interaction at the table. I'd add a lot of other things to his list perhaps, clues related to social status, etc.
 

S'mon

Legend
This strikes me as unfair. The player does not have the feedback available to the character. In a study of what job interviewers took note of...

Job interviews is an obvious example of a situation where people - the Interviewers - will definitely be using their Insight. Having a friendly beer in the pub later and chatting among themselves, they probably won't be, unless pathologically suspicious.
 

S'mon

Legend
Well, OK, maybe I don't quite understand. It sounded to me like you're saying you're arguing for not using social skills at all in these situations and leaving it to the players to decide to believe or not believe without benefit of a check.

Overall I'd side with Balesir. The PLAYERS have in many respects far less information to go on and most of the more telling kinds of information really aren't provided by the interaction at the table. I'd add a lot of other things to his list perhaps, clues related to social status, etc.

No, players can request a check whenever they want - though an Insight check does require interaction first, per RAW.
 

S'mon

Legend
a bunch of spurious feedback based on a human being only peripherally connected to the character their PC is actually dealing with.

Hm, we clearly have different views on the DM-NPC relation. When I speak in character as an NPC, I get in character, same as when playing my PC.
 

MarkB

Legend
Hm, we clearly have different views on the DM-NPC relation. When I speak in character as an NPC, I get in character, same as when playing my PC.

To the extent that, when you're telling a lie in-character rather than simply acting a fictional part, you'll subconsciously provide perceptible 'tells' that a perceptive player can pick up on?
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
There's a lot of truth in this. However, there are four ways to handle it:

1) The DM makes the check for the players. This eliminates the issue, but does feel somewhat unsatisfactory.

2) The players make the check, but the DM hides the DC. This is a little more satisfactory, but doesn't avoid the players knowing if they've rolled really badly.

3) The DM subtracts 10 from the DC and then adds the result of his own d20 roll - effectively turning all such checks into opposed checks. This may be slightly better even than #2, but is a bit more time-consuming.

4) Just trust your players to play fair. (Oh, and don't let them guide the conversation round to another Insight check - in effect, that's cheating, and shouldn't be permitted.)

In general, I find #4 is the best way to go - even in the worst case, it's only one roll, and generally not worth worrying about.

I find #1 to be the best way to go.

Why should players roll their own perception and insight rolls? The very concept of rolling low or high on the roll gives them information that the PC doesn't have, so the best way to handle that is to just give the players the info the PC does have.

Ditto for knowledge checks. You shouldn't know that your PC doesn't know because you rolled lousy, you should just know that your PC doesn't know. Is it because you rolled lousy, or was it because the knowledge was obscure?

I think the roleplaying aspect of the game plays smoother if the players do not have to roleplay as if the PC doesn't know something, even if the players do know it. The game feels less artificial that way.
 

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