Water Breathing Dispelled while character is underwater, drowning or drowned?

[jonesy]

The very nature of breathing makes it logical a spell that lets you breath water would put water into your lungs.

By that logic dolphins do not exist.

 

[jonesy]

Here, I'll show you what I mean:

Waterbreathing allows an airbreather to survive inside a liquid without access to oxygen, and without choking.

=

Dolphin physiology allows them to survive inside a liquid without access to oxygen, and without choking.

compared to

Dolphins are airbreathers and would need a water breathing spell to survive longer than normal inside a liquid without access to oxygen, or so that they would not choke.

=

The avarage d&d adventurer is an airbreather and would need a water breathing spell to survive longer than normal inside a liquid without access to oxygen, or so that they would not choke.

Now, where in there is there a place for water enters lungs?

Edit:

Water breathing also doesn't make you unable to breathe air. How are you breathing air if your lungs are full of water? If the character is in a dungeon which is alternating air/water environments does he need to cough up water everytime he goes from water to air?

Also, I am just a simple human but I can easily stop water going into my lungs. Not for long, but the world record is longer than what dolphins can do. Why would water breathing not only make one less efficient at keeping water out, but also force water in? If I have an active water breathing spell and someone dumps my head in a bucket of water during a fight do I have to automatically inhale it?

 

[Dandu]

The very nature of breathing makes it logical a spell that lets you breath water would put water into your lungs.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I'm still wondering if frankthedm thinks there was any intent on the part of the game designers for water breathing to work the way he's advocating, or whether he concedes that they didn't (but still believes they should have).

Is there some reason you don't want to answer that question, frankthedm?

 

[frankthedm]

I'm still wondering if frankthedm thinks there was any intent on the part of the game designers for water breathing to work the way he's advocating, or whether he concedes that they didn't (but still believes they should have).

Is there some reason you don't want to answer that question, frankthedm?

Was late, was busy playing skyrim. I also wanted to remain civil. Still too busy, be back around later.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I also wanted to remain civil.

There's no reason you wouldn't do so; my question wasn't the least bit provocative. As I said, it doesn't bother me if you simply hold a different opinion as to what makes for a good rule.

And if you think the game designers actually intended for the spell to work the way you're suggesting...well, obviously I'm going to disagree, but I'm sure we can both do so politely. I'm just curious to know, because it fascinates me whenever someone else looks at the same evidence that I do and comes to the diametrically opposite conclusion.

 

[Dandu]

I would be more interested in hearing if introducing such a ruling would make the game more enjoyable.

 

[frankthedm]

Let's pretend for just a second that the subject of a water breathing spell literally takes water into his lungs. The spell's duration expires normally. Does he die? )

If he chose to hold his breath when it was a lungful of water and decides to wait out the spell when he could have been breathing air, I think it would be good thing for the character to die.

The spell allows you to breathe water (as if it were air); if the spell suddenly ends, you can hold your breath (just as if you'd been breathing air).

Except it is not air or anything remotely breathable anymore.

I mean, all that water in the lungs you claim is there isn't spelled out as going away! What a horrible spell, why would anyone ever use it?!

Breath out the water, breath in the air, while you have the spell going, that’s within the character’s options since they can breath water freely.

I'm just curious, frankthedm: is it your belief that the game's designers actually intended that water breathing cause death, nausea, or some other harm upon being dispelled and/or its duration expiring, or do you just personally think that's a good idea?

The devs only left us with the text of “The transmuted creatures can breathe water freely.” &“The spell does not make creatures unable to breathe air.” to figure out their motives. To me “breath water freely” seems straightforward enough, water can go in just like it was air, but VERY dangerous should the ability be lost suddenly. IMHO just because something is dangerous if it gets dispelled, doesn’t mean the spell need some “round the corners off the kitchen table” safety feature.

To interpret a spell named Water Breathing as literally as to mean it allows you to breath water makes about as much sense as saying a spell called Stoneskin turns your skin to stone. And thus subjects it to Stone Shape or Transmute Stone to Mud.

The analogy doesn’t work, Water breathing’s effect matches it’s name closely, “The transmuted creatures can breathe water freely.”, Stone skin’s effect doesn’t, “The warded creature gains resistance to blows, cuts, stabs, and slashes. The subject gains damage reduction 10/adamantine.”

In addition, there are significant mechanical reasons against such an interpretation - as mentioned before, that would mean that when the spell expires on dry land, you are left with a lung full of water and risk dry drowning. I sincerely doubt the designers intended for this to happen.

That doesn’t happen since while the spell is going the spell recipient can breath both water and air freely, and so has every option to breath the water out.

Water breathing also doesn't make you unable to breathe air. How are you breathing air if your lungs are full of water? If the character is in a dungeon which is alternating air/water environments does he need to cough up water every time he goes from water to air?

Why yes, it would be prudent to breath the water out each opportunity.

Why would water breathing not only make one less efficient at keeping water out, but also force water in?

The water is being breathed.

If I have an active water breathing spell and someone dumps my head in a bucket of water during a fight do I have to automatically inhale it?

You don’t have to, but with the spell up you have your options open.

I'm still wondering if frankthedm thinks there was any intent on the part of the game designers for water breathing to work the way he's advocating, or whether he concedes that they didn't (but still believes they should have).

What is there to concede? That IMO the simplest way to read the spell is very dangerous to the recipient if it gets dispelled? I'll agree Patryn of Elvenshae's "You grow gills" is a better way to run the spell.

>>>>>>>>>

All that said, anyone remember the drowning attacks effects of the 3e Nereid and or Drowned Zombie? IIRC both of those had very dangerous lungs fill with water effect.

 

[Vegepygmy]

The devs only left us with the text of “The transmuted creatures can breathe water freely.” &“The spell does not make creatures unable to breathe air.” to figure out their motives. To me “breath water freely” seems straightforward enough, water can go in just like it was air, but VERY dangerous should the ability be lost suddenly.

It seems to me that you're saying "no, I don't think the devs intended for the spell to work the way I'm suggesting, because I have no idea what their intent was, but I do think it's a good idea for it to work the way I'm suggesting." Do I understand you correctly?

What is there to concede? That IMO the simplest way to read the spell is very dangerous to the recipient if it gets dispelled?

I stated that I thought it was extremely unlikely that the game's designers actually intended for the spell to work the way you were interpreting it. I simply wondered if you were willing to concede that point.

I'll agree Patryn of Elvenshae's "You grow gills" is a better way to run the spell.

Oh. Well, then it seems we agree. Carry on!

 

[PureGoldx58]

Personally, I like to think that any spell (especially a transmutation spell) that doesn't explicitly say what it transforms about you to achieve the desired effect to be left up to the individual player's creativity.

Because I see magic as similar to science (in D&D), you can reach the same conclusion with a different effect/path. Every spell caster might come up with a different way to reach water breathing but it still function the same because people think very differently about similar topics and a bubble around their head that transforms water into air may seem more logical to said wizard than gills or any other method. This is also similar to the varying interpretations of the effect of this spell being forcibly removed.

I however would rule that if they made a spellcraft check when the dispel was cast they had ample warning of the threat (maybe coupled with an int check, just in case they have multiple effects on them to see the potential threat) and if they passed I would give them a breath before the effect wore off, if they failed or failed to see the threat I would rule them pretty much screwed and they better recast or start swimming.