• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

Legends and Lore - Nod To Realism

Wounds should impair.

Should they? I don't think the real record on that is actually clear. Sometimes they do, even minor ones. Sometimes even mortal ones don't seem to until the wounded individual stops running on adrenaline and keels over.

In D&D, wounds don't impair all actions directly. But they do impair in the sense that you can now take fewer additional ones before you keel over. Given the mixed results reality gives us, I'm content with that for a game.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I think that for some 4e elements to be portrayed as "realistic" (coherent, with versimilitude etc) e.g. warlord's ins, piring word, the old "Come and Get It" power, certain constraints are placed on description of the gameworld. However these constraints are an emergent phenomenon, a consequence of wanting the rules to work and being willing to adapt to them.

"Inspiring Word" is the "It's just a flesh wound" schtick from many action films, IMO. It doesn't make sense if the DM insists on describing massive gaping wounds and crippling injuries. The thing is, given the D&D hit point system, for me it never did for positive hp values, and I didn't describe unconscious-but-living PCs in earlier editions as having crippling injuries either. So only minor changes were needed in my descriptions.

However, I can see different wound description styles could make "Inspiring Word" problematic, and the rules didn't say anything about this issue.

Similarly, even the old Come and Get It power could be described in ways that retained versimilitude, but hostile and some neutral descriptions of it's functioning could break said versimilitude.

Personally, I think 4e has the implicit assumption all PCs can have supernatural powers, not just spellcasters.Even martial PCs can be super-good at their specialities. In old Irish folklore most of the heroes tended to be warriors of superhuman ability, and I have no problem with 4e balancing the scales between non-spellcasters and spellcasters, its one of the changes I heartily approve of.
 

Should they? I don't think the real record on that is actually clear. Sometimes they do, even minor ones. Sometimes even mortal ones don't seem to until the wounded individual stops running on adrenaline and keels over.
My point was 4e's Inspiring Word is no more unrealistic than wounds never causing impairment. The only difference is the community has had less time to rationalize Inspiring Word, and more time to politely ignore all the traditional mechanics which "stretch the fiction".
 

I think this is a good question to ask. It ties into what I was getting at with a few of my posts both here in this thread as well as ones I've made elsewhere.

For me, my answer was that I was lead to believe McDonald's made pizza -to keep with the same analogy. The vast majority of my rpg experience at one time had been D&D and virtually nothing other than D&D. I was vaguely aware that other games existed, but I mostly assumed that most ways of rolling dice and playing a rpg were pretty much that same. I did have a very brief period of playing Rifts when first introduced to the hobby, but the GM of the game I was in did most of the rolling for players and my time with the game was very brief, so I did not see a lot of how it worked at the time.

So, honestly, my education level concerning games and game design was very poor at that time. Looking back on some old posts I made concerning D&D, I can now admit to myself that I held a lot of opinions about what I thought I liked due to not knowing any better. While some of 4th's changes were things I did not like (some were things I did like too,) they helped me to discover (through being so different from what I knew in 3rd) that there was more to pretending to be an elf or slaying a dragon than simply rolling a d20, and that styles of mechanics might actually change the flavor of the game.

I suppose my personal answer is that for years I had been eating chicken nuggets and thinking they were pizza. I had been told it was pizza. Not ever having pizza, I had no idea that McDonald's chicken nuggets were not pizza. Now that I've had pizza, I am aware that it tastes nothing like chicken nuggets, but there was a time when I would have never known the difference. Had somebody told me I was eating what I thought was pizza the wrong way, I would have argued with them and defended my chicken nuggets as being the real pizza.

It would not surprise me to find that there are others right now who are eating 'chicken nuggets' and believing they are in fact pieces of 'pizza.'

Yes. However, in the pizza analogy, a game system is not a single meal, but a menu or series of meals over some time. If you want pizza, and you go to McDonalds and get chicken nuggets, then you really don't have a leg to stand on. (Try to write a complaint to McDonalds or interested observers that will sound reasonsable. :angel:)

But the fair claim for immersion in D&D is not that. Rather, it is that if I'm going to frequent your place all year long, there had better be pizza as an option part of the time. Any given meal, a whole bunch of given meals, with no pizza? No problem. No pizza whatsoever for a whole year? Problem.

My complaint with the (particular, more strident) advocates of "more immersion, more immersion!" all the time in D&D (i.e. the assumption that immersion is the paramount virtue in any RPG, including D&D) is that they aren't lobbying for pizza on the menu. They want to replace pretty much everything else on the menu with varieties of pizza. You can have your hamburger and chicken as toppings, and you can get the shoddy version at McDonalds, the tasty version at a nicer place, and maybe some Asian flavoring at the Japanese steak house. But it will all be pizza. When you cook at home, you can make anything you want, but it will only be made with pizza ingredients.

Guy I knew in high school worked at a very nice pizza place for awhile that let the employees cook and eat as much as they wanted with the food that was there. He said it worked great for awhile. They made some mean omelets for variety. But after two or three months, you got sick of the ingredients. I worked at a nearby hamburger joint. We used to trade them a bag of burgers for pizza, since we were sick of our food.

Then you have the "disassociated" nonsense which is basically folks claiming that you can tell how appropriate a mechanic is for D&D by testing to see whether or not you can fool yourself. A hamburger is bad as a hamburger. But if you can fool yourself into thinking it is pizza, well alright! :p

The exact, optimal amount of immersion producing mechanics--and lack of immersion destroying mechanics--is a fair point of discussion. And so is, if D&D is truly to remain rather middle of the road, support for other styles of play. You merely can't get very far in that discussion if some of the people involved will not acknowledge the inherent limits of going down the middle. One of them is that "more pizza" is not automatically a good thing. I know that is hard to believe. There was a time when I wouldn't have believed it. :D

And yes again, wider experience in games (and food) will make one a more discerning critic of the limits of a particular game. Lack of this experience is not automatically crippling, but it runs the risk of leading one into very shallow argument that try to turn hamburgers into fake pizzas.
 

Nonsense.

The game should be consistent...

It is consistent. It is not consistent in the way that you are assuming as the defacto standard. That is classic begging the question. The rest of your post unpacks to the equivalent of: "Food should be consistently pizza. This is self-evident. Therefore, if a food isn't pizza, there is something wrong with it."

Interpreting 4e mechanics as "process simulation" is doomed to failure. From this perspective, it definitely does not work. I think it's obvious to everybody here.

The point is, that is not what 4e mechanics does. It is the first edition of D&D with reasonably consistent design assumptions and goals - and it was never designed as simulation. It's not a good hammer, not because it is poorly made, but because it is a reasonably good screwdriver.

Exactly.
 
Last edited:

I guess my main respones is "When people want pizza, why don't they get it from a pizza parlour instead of demanding that MacDonalds should do pizza?"

I think the answer to that would be, "The Wizards' Pizza Parlor said they were coming out with a spiffy new pizza. But when I went to try it out, they served me burgers and fries. Where's my pizza?"

Or, in my case, "These burgers and fries are pretty good, and they don't give me heartburn the way the old pizza did. But I miss pizza. I'd really like it if the Wizards' Pizza Parlor would start making pizza again, but use some of those burger ingredients."

D&D is a brand, and a brand is built on the customer's trust that it delivers a certain thing at a certain standard of quality. As long as 4E is calling itself Dungeons and Dragons, it is entirely fair and reasonable to expect it to be the same kind of game as all previous editions of Dungeons and Dragons. Otherwise you're putting burgers in a pizza box and selling it as pizza, in order to get in on the lucrative pizza market. So I judge 4E by the same standard I would use to judge any D&D edition, and immersiveness is part (though by no means all) of that judgement. If the designers want to ditch immersiveness as a design goal, let them go off and make their own game under a new brand name.
 
Last edited:

Interpreting 4e mechanics as "process simulation" is doomed to failure. From this perspective, it definitely does not work. I think it's obvious to everybody here.

The point is, that is not what 4e mechanics does. It is the first edition of D&D with reasonably consistent design assumptions and goals - and it was never designed as simulation. It's not a good hammer, not because it is poorly made, but because it is a reasonably good screwdriver.

Powers work on metagame level. They represent story elements, not setting elements. When a player uses a power, they are requesting something to happen in fiction, they are extending their narrative rights; it's very different from the character doing something to this effect. In many cases, a character does not anything special when a power is invoked - it's how others react and how circumstances change. Using mechanics as a way of deciding outcomes and narrating events to make sense within it is not patching a nonfunctional system; it's playing the game as designed.

One more thing of note: the magical/mundane split you seem to request is mutually exclusive with class balance many people want from D&D. Being able to override physics, psychology and other notions of "realism" is by definition more powerful than not being able to do it. So, when aiming for balance, one has to either give magic to everyone, remove everything "magical" from magic or move from simulation mechanics to metagame, narrative mechanics. 4e is far from perfect, but the choice it made here is the most sensible one.

The most sensible only if the goal of the game is collaborative storytelling.

The original D&D game was not designed for such a goal. The biggest challenge for the designers is to decide if the game is going to be about roleplaying adventurers exploring a fantasy world or an exercise in collaborative storytelling.

Either way, about half the audience will have diminished interest in the game.
 

But as soon as the Fighter uses CaGI, the NPC's intent changes to "I want to get up in that fighter's grill and smack him".

But it is incredibly jarring that suddenly the massively intelligent wizard with a huge will who doesn't even speak my language decides to come up close and smack the big huge fighter with his dagger. That is atrocious and unbelievably bad fiction.

This has been discussed before because it is SO absurd an example to many of us. I've never seen an explanation that made the slightest sense to me.

Obviously lots of people have no problem with this and that is absolutely fine with me.

But for some of us CAGI exemplifies design decisions made in 4th Edition that we do not like. NOT "bad" decisions, just decisions that are not to our taste.
 

"Inspiring Word" is the "It's just a flesh wound" schtick from many action films, IMO. It doesn't make sense if the DM insists on describing massive gaping wounds and crippling injuries. The thing is, given the D&D hit point system, for me it never did for positive hp values, and I didn't describe unconscious-but-living PCs in earlier editions as having crippling injuries either. So only minor changes were needed in my descriptions.

However, I can see different wound description styles could make "Inspiring Word" problematic, and the rules didn't say anything about this issue...

This mirrors my experience. It is part of the reason why I find 4E healing, complete with warlord powers and healing surges, less immersion destroying than pure hit points. Most purely physical "adrenaline" style mechanics coupled with hit points get to complicated and/or encourage the players to metagame into edge cases such that I find the results highly implausible. So they are immersion destroying for me.

However, my "shallow immersion" is mainly predicated on getting plausible results in the flow of the story, not process or micro focus on details. When I focus on details, it is seldom related to mechanics, but in finer points of the story line--e.g. presentation of crucial information.

And it is also true that any process simulation process invariably forces the game into the core of that simulation. (Well, it does if the process simulation is well done. And if it isn't well done, why would you want it?) Since game designers seldom make games that cater to my style preferences, then the only way I can have my style supported is by a game that focuses more on general results. It is what drove me to Hero System, away from D&D 2E, in the first place.

BTW, all of this is also one of the many reasons why the 3E craft rules offend my sensibilities so much. The micro details of the process are poorly designed, and the results are ludicrous. But because it is embedded into the skill system, it is harder to ignore than it first appears. You can't really replace it the way it needs to be replaced without redesiging the skill system, the feat system, or both--and tampering with those ricochet into classes, messing the whole system up. So I end up dropping it. But it just being the core book interferes with my immersion in the game world, the same way goofy weapon weights does. I tell ya, what brings people in and out of the game world is highly personal. :lol:
 

I think the answer to that would be, "The Wizards' Pizza Parlor said they were coming out with a spiffy new pizza. But when I went to try it out, they served me burgers and fries. Where's my pizza?"

Or, in my case, "These burgers and fries are pretty good, and they don't give me heartburn the way the old pizza did. But I miss pizza. I'd really like it if the Wizards' Pizza Parlor would start making pizza again, but use some of those burger ingredients."

Fair enough. Though I think it would be stronger had the place started as a pizza parlor instead of one of those hodge-podge places that served (greasy) pizza, burgers, and a bunch of other things. :p

Looking at D&D as a whole, since its inception, I can see an argument for--2E as a lurch away from the "game" in favor of "storytelling", 3E as a lurch back to the "game" that over-corrected by trying to merge the two into a process, and 4E as an over-correction to that by hyper focus on replacing process with results.

All anyone really wanted to do was get a slickly produced, streamlined, clear, relatively easy to understand and play version of D&D that more or less replicated what you could do (albeit with more effort and missteps) with Basic or the first AD&D. I still say that 5E could do worse than to start with the Rules Cyclopedia as a base, and then apply all the lessons learned making 2E, 3E, and 4E.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top