Do YOU nod to "realism"?

[Tony Vargas]

Recently, a wizard in a game I was guest-DMing for used an illusion power to hold off several monsters, making a modestly tough combat a lot easier. One of the monsters never even made it past the illusionary wall, she just kept hitting his WILL every time he tried. That'd be an example of a player "...throwing up an illusion that will hold the monsters off for a few rounds."

 

[KarinsDad]

I ran into this issue with my normally creative players when I noticed that they were simply overlooking the stuff that did not appear in their character sheet. I solved this issue by making the solution visible to the players. It radically changed the dynamic of the game when I did that. My players went back to using creative solutions to problems.

I have written about this before, and I even provide my solution here. Feel free to use it and tell me how it works for your group.

I definitely understand where you are coming from, but if 5E adapts this concept, I won't play 5E.

I want there to be rules about modifying the story and not a "get out of jail free" set of cards for players with real good imaginations where the DM feels obligated to give the players a free pass.

I might be willing to allow this type if thing if it were a Weekly ability (as opposed to At Will and Encounter) and had good rules to show the DM how to adjudicate it, but wow. Talk about player entitlement support. Yikes!

To tell you the truth, I absolutely dispise the card system that 4E designers came up with and that's hundreds of miles away from the abusability of your concept.

 

[D'karr]

I definitely understand where you are coming from, but if 5E adapts this concept, I won't play 5E.

I want there to be rules about modifying the story and not a "get out of jail free" set of cards for players with real good imaginations where the DM feels obligated to give the players a free pass.

I might be willing to allow this type if thing if it were a Weekly ability (as opposed to At Will and Encounter) and had good rules to show the DM how to adjudicate it, but wow. Talk about player entitlement support. Yikes!

To tell you the truth, I absolutely dispise the card system that 4E designers came up with and that's hundreds of miles away from the abusability of your concept.

That's a very "interesting" take on it. I really don't get how anyone would even jump to the conclusion that what I'm providing my players is even remotely a "get out of jail free" card, but if that's what you see I really have no reason to try to disillusion you.

Good luck with your players.

 

[technoextreme]

Recently, a wizard in a game I was guest-DMing for used an illusion power to hold off several monsters, making a modestly tough combat a lot easier. One of the monsters never even made it past the illusionary wall, she just kept hitting his WILL every time he tried. That'd be an example of a player "...throwing up an illusion that will hold the monsters off for a few rounds."

Yeah I'm really quite interested with how much 4E KarrinsDad claims to have played with all these non examples and poor understanding of mechanics. Just as a side note there is nothing stopping a monster from stealing player powers. In fact it was something they actively encouraged within reason and well dropping marks is well within reason. So much so that a bunch of the monsters have that power by default.

 

[talok55]

My one friend used a conjuration to go fight off the monsters while he effectively retreated.

Have you actually played this game? Its kind of clear that you don't even know the baseline mechanics.

I find it hard to understand where you are coming from. Conjurations are generally so sub-optimal (mainly because they end up using your actions to use them) that most players will pass on them. They can be useful sometimes, but mostly they are not worth it. I have yet to encounter any monster that can shed marks. I'm sure some can, but it is not even remotely a common ability. You keep asking if he's even played the game. We could ask you the same question. Making statements claiming that lots of monsters can shed mark when that is most definitely not the case makes the rest of your comments highly suspect.

 

[KarinsDad]

Recently, a wizard in a game I was guest-DMing for used an illusion power to hold off several monsters, making a modestly tough combat a lot easier. One of the monsters never even made it past the illusionary wall, she just kept hitting his WILL every time he tried. That'd be an example of a player "...throwing up an illusion that will hold the monsters off for a few rounds."

True, but it's not an example of the player using his imagination which was the topic we were discussing. Illusions used to be used to create effects that the player imagined, not just set in stone illusions of specific items.

Although Illusory Wall is an illusion, the player's imagination is not really part of it. It cannot be a treasure chest or webs hanging down.

There are 6 illusion utility spells that create quasi-fake creatures (out of over 2800 utility powers total):

Distracting Illusion
Spectral Image
Spectral Hound
Shadow Ally
Clever Escape
Raven's Glamor

Most of these powers are weaker versions of summoning powers and really don't help the party significantly as per the discussion of creating an illusion to allow the party to escape.

There are 2 illusion utility spells that create objects:

Illusory Wall
Phantom Legion

And there is one illusion utility power that allow one to affect the terrain to the point that they could fool someone, for example, have someone step into water:

Spectral Vision

The vast majority of the other illusion utility spells are concealment, invisibility, or PC disguise. There is one that hands out temporary hit points.

None of these powers allow the player to significantly use his or her imagination to affect the illusion. There are a handful of Daily attack illusion spells that have one effect or another, but it's really few and far between.

This is not a large set of powers to choose from. The designers have mostly wiped the concept of creating cool illusions out of the game system.

 

[technoextreme]

I find it hard to understand where you are coming from. Conjurations are generally so sub-optimal (mainly because they end up using your actions to use them) that most players will pass on them. They can be useful sometimes, but mostly they are not worth it. I have yet to encounter any monster that can shed marks. I'm sure some can, but it is not even remotely a common ability. You keep asking if he's even played the game. We could ask you the same question. Making statements claiming that lots of monsters can shed mark when that is most definitely not the case makes the rest of your comments highly suspect.

When you are in a game where you are effectively encouraged and allowed to utilize any power whether it be PC or Monster when designing a monster it kind of makes you look like you have no idea what you are talking about. By the rules of the game any monster can wipe marks.

Distracting Illusion
Spectral Image
Spectral Hound
Shadow Ally
Clever Escape
Raven's Glamor

There are more powers than that.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

If you play the game as a tactical skirmish game, it will be a tactical skimish game. This is true of any edition, though perhaps not equally fun in all editions when played that way.

 

[Wormwood]

If you play the game as a tactical skirmish game, it will be a tactical skimish game. This is true of any edition, though perhaps not equally fun in all editions when played that way.

1980

DM used a tape measure, meticulously tracking every inch. Also noted the arc of protection of every shield.

Plus ça change.

 

[Balesir]

The designers have mostly wiped the concept of creating cool illusions out of the game system.

You found them cool? I found them an undefined mess that were either grossly overpowerful or utterly useless depending on how well the player was able to persuade/bamboozle/seduce the DM. As a DM they were simply a mass of questions to which I had to invent or randomly determine answers (Assuming the enemy believe the illusion, how do they react? What did they expect to see? How well do they know what the illusion should look like? Do the players deserve a break, here? What do the players think should happen, and is that a reasonable expectation? If the illusion works as intended, does that set up any problematic precedents for future play?). Blegh - thank the gods I don't have to deal with that kind of crap any more.