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Do YOU nod to "realism"?

Would you refrain from using a 4E power if it doesn't seem "realistic"?

  • I play 4E and, yes, I avoid using powers "unrealistically"

    Votes: 26 19.3%
  • I play 4E and, no, I use powers according to RAW

    Votes: 72 53.3%
  • I do NOT play 4E, but yes, I'd avoid using powers "unrealistically"

    Votes: 21 15.6%
  • I do NOT play 4E, but no, I'd use powers according to RAW

    Votes: 5 3.7%
  • I don't know or not applicable or other

    Votes: 11 8.1%

[MENTION=58416]Johnny3D3D[/MENTION] It sounds like you are jonesing for a bit of Sim play. My suggestion would be to pick a system that does that well (Call of Cthulhu, HârnMaster, Bushido, Pendragon) and play it for a while. No need to abandon D&D while you do so - the systems I listed are simple once you grok them and so is 4E.
 

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I don't think it's a matter of training as much as a matter of visibility. A power is something a player has written on his character sheet in one form or another. The improvised actions/effects are not something they think about much, because they are not clearly visible to the player.

I ran into this issue with my normally creative players when I noticed that they were simply overlooking the stuff that did not appear in their character sheet. I solved this issue by making the solution visible to the players. It radically changed the dynamic of the game when I did that. My players went back to using creative solutions to problems.
I need to spread xps, but I think this is an excellent point. I would go further and say that Powers are things tha players have both visibility and control over - they don't need to risk DM nerfscorn or ask a slew or questions to be assured that their idea (a) might actually work and (b) might be worthwhile to do. Making terrain options and such like visible and explicit places these possibilities on an equal footing with Powers instead of them being awkward and uncertain "poor man's options".
 

Wow, KarinsDad, I have to say that you have some really, really crappy players. You are just so jaded about 4e mechanics.

We've been playing 4e pretty consistently for about a year and a half now and virtually every single fight there have been "Drop crates on the baddies" situations. Whether it's pushing the Calzone Demon into the oven, using terrain effects or whatnot, I'd say that virtually every single encounter we've had has featured "out of the box" non power mechanics.

I have no idea why your group has fallen into this trap. We certainly haven't.

You don't have to have "crappy" players to not drop crates on people's heads in 4E. 4E's powers make it really easy to not think about using off the wall things when you can just spam your at-will powers.
 

Yeah, I must say that the powers system does kinda pigeonhole people. It's hard enough for most players to keep their at-wills, choice of a half-dozen encounter powers and a half-dozen daily powers AND their magic item powers straight in their heads before they even start thinking about what they can get out of the environment.

Back in earlier editions when a fighter had a choice of "full attack" or "something else" this was a bit easier. Not saying this was a good thing per se, but it was the case.

The best solution I've found is to make environmental effects extremely powerful so that they become the first thing players think about when considering their options rather than the last thing.
 

To encourage any kind of play, any reward that the players value, or method that gets results by their lights, will work just fine.

One of the reasons that we've had no issue with players being imaginative is that, since before 3E came out, I've had it as standard practice to give out bonus awards for clever or amusing play. If you make another player (or me) roll on the floor or prompt an involuntary, "Wow, that was slick!"--the award is automatic. For 4E, we use Action Points for the rewards, because that fits into the way we play it.

That doesn't mean that every stunt using p. 42 qualifies. Far from it. But a player is more likely to need p. 42 to be clever or amusing, and thus have a shot at such a reward. However, if they can use a power or skill in a clever or amusing way, we don't want to stop that either. And sometimes the player is tired and wants to forgo such efforts without being completely ineffective. That's fine, too. The whole thing almost is self-regulating.

The group should always reward the kind of behavior that they want in some way. The trick is determining the scope of what it is that you really want, not getting hyper-focused on some narrow examples of it. "I wish they would use p. 42 more" isn't often a prime desire, but rather an expression of a larger one. Determine the prime thing, and reward that. P. 42 will take care of itself.
 

I've never done that (played creatively or realistically) , but I would love to. I'm a first time player, and our campaigns are pretty straightforward, not a lot of room for character development or anything besides "fightfightfight". And none of us have really started thinking about off the wall and creative manners of fighting.

We have had one player who consistently tries to overload his powers, and it gets rather annoying when there were other plausible actions that the entire party could have been a part of.
 

I do have a bit of a problem with multi-target marking. I totally understand that the bookkeeping is easier with aura marking, but it's just one more step away from plausibility. I do think that there are probably better mechanisms and I also think that there should be a mundane way to get rid of a mark (e.g. some sort of Move Action skill check, possibly Athletics or Acrobatics to get past the marker). It shouldn't be fire and forget and it auto-affects foes with no recourse. Most other effects in the game system require that one hit the foe in order for the effect to take place.

I all ready told you there is an at-will power which nullifies marks.
This is a direct result of there not being many good utility spells in combat anymore. A player cannot throw up an illusion that will hold the monsters off for a few rounds as the players retreat. He might be able to throw up a wall, but even that often isn't quite the same.
How the hell is it that you lament the state of D&D complaining about a tactic that I saw used three weeks ago?
You don't have to have "crappy" players to not drop crates on people's heads in 4E. 4E's powers make it really easy to not think about using off the wall things when you can just spam your at-will powers.
Certain controllers major source of damage output is to drop crates on people's heads and to utilize terrain to your advantage. Its kind of hardboiled into those classes.
 
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I all ready told you there is an at-will power which nullifies marks.

First off, I cannot find a post where you said that.

Secondly, what does that have to do with monsters? Monsters cannot use this one power and the vast majority of PCs cannot as well.

You mentioned earlier that there were lots of ways past marks and the best you came up with was a single power (presumably Shed the Mark) that no monster can use, hence no DM can use.

So far, I'm not seeing where your POV that it's easy to bypass marks ("Also, mark voiding powers are common place") is supported here.

Again, I'll ask you for these common place examples.

How the hell is it that you lament the state of D&D complaining about a tactic that I saw used three weeks ago?

Again, your example here is real thin. Care to explain?
 

We have had one player who consistently tries to overload his powers, and it gets rather annoying when there were other plausible actions that the entire party could have been a part of.

I've seen a player similar to this, but not quite in the same vein. He took a lot of rituals and created a lot of consumables and then tried to constantly throw them out to the party when the party really didn't need them. He was a real nice guy, but just didn't seem to understand that the options he was trying to hand out were rarely optimal and I don't think anyone had the heart to tell him. Real life intruded (he got deployed) and he had to leave the group.

I do think that consumables are an area where 4E fell on its face.
 

Again, your example here is real thin. Care to explain?
My one friend used a conjuration to go fight off the monsters while he effectively retreated.
You mentioned earlier that there were lots of ways past marks and the best you came up with was a single power (presumably Shed the Mark) that no monster can use, hence no DM can use.
Have you actually played this game? Its kind of clear that you don't even know the baseline mechanics.

Have you actually used ENworld much? Its kind of clear that you don't even know the rules about being offensive to other posters. I'm booting you from this thread to give you a chance to think about it. Plane Sailing, Enworld Admin
 
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