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Legends and Lore - Nod To Realism

To satisfy many 4E players, you must keep the essential part of the healing surge in some form.
Yes.

This is one iteration of a pattern throughout 4E that has created a problem for WotC that likely can not be undone.

While there were clearly people who didn't like 3E, it was overall hugely popular. And there are still MANY 4E fans who insist that they liked 3E but prefer 4E because to them it plays EXACTLY like 3E, only fixed and easier. And they are telling the truth. But that's the issue. 3E was highly adaptable and a ton of people played it in a vast range of ways. But it required *adaptation* to really be this person's or that person's preference.

So if you were one of those people who played 3E in a style that would now be recognized as consistent with 4E then you LOVE 4E. It is your old 3E with all the adaptations and fixes built in so you don't have to do it. And if you are that guy there is no reason you would or SHOULD ever go back. For that slice of the gaming marketplace 4E is hands down superior.

But if you are not in that slice 4E might be just a different but still just as good alternate, or it may be a failure. And clearly there are enough people in that last group to matter. But now you can't get them back without losing people that have been very specifically catered to.

Where there once was a highly diverse collection of types all adequately pleased under one tent, there are now smaller sub groups that are not readily inclined to be content in each other's tents any time soon.

The milk is spilled.
The genie is out of the bottle.
Pick your cliche.
 

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I think the healing surge example is very problematic, and shows that something other than consistency is at work.

Your example of inconsistency with healing surges is "I was wounded impaled last round but now I am fine". But there are no wound/impale mechanics in 4e (nor any other version of D&D, except perhaps some of that Players Option stuff in late 2nd ed AD&D). And even the dying condition doesn't have to be treated as an ingame state. Ingame, all that we know about the PC is that s/he is prone and unable to perceive or act - this can be narrated in any of a range of ways, of which literally dying due to wounds or bleeding is only one.

Whether or not an impale/wound mechanic exists in 4E isn't the issue, the issue is a portion of gamers have been using HP to describe wounds for a very long time. In previous editions this didn't present a consistency issue (because only magical healing or rest would heal HP). But in 4E, because a healing surge could follow a description of a serious wound, this produced inconsistencies in what was going on in the game for people.

So healing surges only produce this consistency issue if:
(1) Players narrate hit point loss as wounding/impaling regardless of any rules to that effect;

and/or

(2) Players treat the "dying" condition not as a metagame state but as an ingame state (ie my PC is literally in a critical condition).
(1) and (2) are not the result of players wanting consistency. They are the result of play habits or play preferences (i) for gonzo criticals in narration if not in mechanics, and (ii) for non-metagame mechanics (similar to what Crazy Jerome is calling "process simulation", I think).

1 & 2 are probably a result of a number of different things, but the reason for doing 1 or 2 aren't why consistency matters, consistency matters because people doing 1&2 express concern when healing surges produce inconsistencies when pursuing 1 or 2. The problem healing surges create for players doing 1 & 2 is almost always an issue of consistency (which results in strained believability).

Which goes back to my post on the first page. The real issue here isn't about "realism" or "consistency". It's about what sort of approach to play the mechanics presuppose. If players are going to treat the mechanics as process simulation rather than as metagame (see also the endless complaints that Come and Get It should involve a Will attack, or is objectionable martial mind control), that has to shape design in ways that don't have anything to do with whether or not the fiction is realistic or consistent.

But, if I understand your use of process simulation (and I am not sure I do), we aren't talking about people treating the mechanics as such. We are talking about a basic desire for the game not to disrupt willing suspension of disbelief. This is very different from wanting detailed simulation of reality. What I am saying is the designers can aim for playability, but they will also need to keep believability in mind as they do so. This may mean something like healing surge has to be removed because it produces too many believability issues for a fair number of gamers. But it doesn't mean the next edition of D&D needs to be rolemaster.

I don't really know what "standard" means here. D&D is not particularly generic - no more so than Rolemaster, for example, and arguably less so. What the 4e episode has shown, it seems to me, is that in certain respects the core D&D audience is rather specific in its tastes: it wants "process simulation" in its mechanics, and is hostile to metagame mechanics that are any more integrated into action resolution that "fate point" style bumps to an otherwise simulationist engine.

I mean it is the standard. It is what most people cut their teeth on and what most people play. It has been the go to game. This means they have a much bigger audience to consider than say Savage Worlds. If they want to stay the go to game, they can't do so by appealing to a narrow segment of the D&D audience. That means if they cater too much to one crowd, they could lose another. They really need to walk more of a middle path here. Which is why I suggest they hold playability, believability and flavor in balance. A lot of people feel that playability was pursued at the expense of the latter two.
 

Yes.

This is one iteration of a pattern throughout 4E that has created a problem for WotC that likely can not be undone.

While there were clearly people who didn't like 3E, it was overall hugely popular. And there are still MANY 4E fans who insist that they liked 3E but prefer 4E because to them it plays EXACTLY like 3E, only fixed and easier. And they are telling the truth. But that's the issue. 3E was highly adaptable and a ton of people played it in a vast range of ways. But it required *adaptation* to really be this person's or that person's preference.

...

Where there once was a highly diverse collection of types all adequately pleased under one tent, there are now smaller sub groups that are not readily inclined to be content in each other's tents any time soon..

If it can be undone, then the only way I see is a rather small core ruleset that is neutral on all these issues. That is, it goes back to adequately pleasing that diverse collection under one tent by itself. Then, it has to have options that fit well onto that core and produce the experiences of people who expect more.

That means that healing surges can't be in that small core (and probably not "heal skill" or readily available cure light wand wounds, either, if you want to appeal to pre 3E players). But then those things must be available in options that work with that core and don't feel tacked on. Of course, not all of them have to work in every combination. You just need to be able to say that surges or something very much like it is one way of handling the adventure pacing problem, and it isn't a kludge. Or you can use more 3E-centric options, and those aren't kludges either. Dont like the core, pick your poison out of a few alternates.

I think this can be done, if it is designed into the game from the get go, and targetted at things like healing surges and CLW wands that have been issues in the past. I don't think it can work with a simple core put together as a closed engine, and then other things tacked on haphazardly afterwards--as nearly all D&D options, and a few core pieces, have been designed in every version to date.
 
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Whether or not an impale/wound mechanic exists in 4E isn't the issue, the issue is a portion of gamers have been using HP to describe wounds for a very long time. In previous editions this didn't present a consistency issue (because only magical healing or rest would heal HP). But in 4E, because a healing surge could follow a description of a serious wound, this produced inconsistencies in what was going on in the game for people.

I would say that D&D hit points have always presented consistency issues. It has been a bone of contention almost since D&D launched. The 4E method is the most consistent version of D&D hit points ever produced (though hardly perfect). This necessarily imposed on some of the ways that people rationalized the inconsistencies, but not all.

It didn't affect my view of hit points much at all, because all the things that people say 4E made suddenly unbelieveable were already unbelievable to me, and already rationalized has highly abstract, rough narration and pacing tools. Others had different rationalizations that also survived contact with 4E largely intact. Then others found themselves "forced" into new rationalizations (for them) that they were willing to accept. Others found that they could not accept the new rationalizations and/or were unwilling to be so forced.

You can't fix that by making the rules more consistent. You'd have to go back and make them more inconsistent again, so that all those competing rationalization have a toe-hold.
 

But, if I understand your use of process simulation (and I am not sure I do), we aren't talking about people treating the mechanics as such. We are talking about a basic desire for the game not to disrupt willing suspension of disbelief. This is very different from wanting detailed simulation of reality. What I am saying is the designers can aim for playability, but they will also need to keep believability in mind as they do so. This may mean something like healing surge has to be removed because it produces too many believability issues for a fair number of gamers. But it doesn't mean the next edition of D&D needs to be rolemaster.

What I understand process simulation to mean is to distinguish it from result simulation versus some form of narrative or dramatic metagaming construct. D&D has never been pure in its approach to its mechanics. So we are talking about pressure to push an impure mechanic more towards one thing or another, not absolutes here.

The forms as they might exist in D&D might be thought of as roughly like this, using the canonical example of the swashbuckler swinging on the chandileer:

Process simulation - Mr. Swash has excellent dexterity (or balance skill or "swinging from ropes" skills--details are somewhat optional). He makes some kind of check, swings to a spot that the angle of the rope indicates is possible, bumps the orc mercenary over the rail, and lands gracefully with rapier extended, and then attack the evil gnome warlock. Each thing that was done, you do in order, using an ability and/or roll. If the checks are made, the effort is largely successful. If not, it gets interrupted (falling off the rope, missing the gnome, etc.)

The expectation is that following the process will produce results consistent with the desired fiction. If Mr. Swash wants to swing on ropes a lot, he will need sufficient skill to make swinging on ropes a high percentage task.

Result simulation - There are perhaps only three critical spots in this action--the swing, the orc bump, and the gnome skewering. (For more gonzo action, less critical bits, for more realistic action, more.) If the rope has to be deftly slashed loose before the swing, this probably isn't a check. In the process version, it would be. The critical thing is the swing itself, and anything else is at most a modifier, but mostly color. If the rope is thick, there may be a "swashbuckling" check or a general Dex check that is abstractly determining did Mr. Swash get where he wanted, how he wanted? If he succeeds, fine. If not, most likely the DM handles narration of some kind of failure or it is implied (i.e. a simple miss of the gnome, on that check).

Any number of gaming constructs, by themselves or applied to either of the above -- Fearing a failed check, or after already failing one, Mr. Swash uses an action point to improve the roll. He is just that good, as a heroic swashbuckler. The DM and/or player may or may not narrate using the resource, or it may be assumed to roll into fate or other thing difficult to pin down. One example of a purer versions (there are several), is that the roll doesn't determine success at all, but rather the parameters or consequences of the action. If Mr. Swash says he swings to the balcony, he so swings. The check is to determine how slickly he does this, whether he impresses his lady fair, or any number of options presumably important to the player and/or the character--and probably explicitly stated by the player before the roll.

A lot of times, the action in D&D is simple but abstract enough that you can fudge these differences in your mind, and it doesn't matter. But as pemerton has pointed out before, the Basic D&D saving throw is a form of the gaming construct that falls mainly in that third camp. You can see the difference with the orc in the otherwise small empty room:

1. The fighter rushes in and swings his sword. Almost all process simulation, albeit abstract. He moves per movement rate. He swings, rolling based on his skills. If he misses, either he misses entirely or the orcs armor made the blow null. If he hits, something substantial was done.

2. On the hit, the damage roll occurs, which is subtly result oriented. It doesn't matter how well he hit or where. If he rolls fairly high on the d8+3, he may take the orc down. If he rolls low, he will injure the orc but not take him down. It is entirely up to a person to narrate this in the fiction. (Again, not pure here, very subtle shift, which becomes obscured as the monsters get enough hit points to avoid take down from single hits.)

3. Then the wizard, foolishly fireballs the room. Thanks to the confined space, all three need to make saving throws. The wizard, standing in the doorway, can plausibly try to dive around the corner. But the orc and fighter only have their armor, maybe a shield, and each other to block damage from a blast that entirely fills the room. There is no simulated process or result that is consistent with the orc being fried by this and the fighter walking away slightly scorched. Nevertheless, with the gaming construct of the saving throw, the fighter may get lucky and escape this mistake--or not. If you can narrate something that works for you, you can gloss over this. But it is still there. Try hard enough, and you'll eventually come up with a theoretical situation that blows your suspension of disbelief--the fighter is bound hand and foot, spread-eagled, naked, and the wizard fireballs from 6 inches away, directly into his face. (It was a wizard that rolled a 3 on Wisdom.)
 
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If it is not obvious, the problem with process simulation to produce believable results is two-fold:

1. The process becomes overly detailed to try to account for every result via the process. This is what pushing D&D towards Rolemaster would be doing, and is not the objection in this discussion, as few here have even hinted at it. For 4E fans, this is mainly a slipperly slope concern.

2. The process produces results that are not consistent with the desired fiction and/or results that are believable in some circumstance but not in others.

If you want swashbucklers swinging on ropes, but it takes an attack to cut the rope to make it available to swing on, this is potentially consistent with the process, but not what you want. You want to cut something, swing a blade as you grab the rope. OK, next action we'll get to you doing the actual swing, by which time the orc has leaped from the balcony and the gnome warlock has fried you. A good DM will gloss over these things, of course, and work around this problem. (That is, the DM running an otherwise process simulation will suddenly develop a passion for result simulation that gets turned off again as soon as it can. Don't blink; you might miss it.)

A better game might enshrine exceptions to the process simulation, so that beginning DMs don't have to figure them out themselves. The Take 10 rules in 3E are such a rule. They do have a considerable benefit on handling time, too. This is not an accident, as process simulation rules carried one iota too far nearly always have handling time consequences that are excessive compared to the payoff.

The 4E healing surge is a gaming construct that, among other things, says, "You are going to let the party buy CLW wounds and heal themselves up most fights anyway, but you still want them to eventually get worn down. To save time and confusion for everyone involved, let's just cut out the middle man and set up a framework that establishes that kind of pacing." Obviously, the conceptual jump is greater, and in the interest of handling time it has abandoned simulation concerns. However, there is nothing inconsistent with this method.

And if you want to put the simulation back, as I said right after 4E launch, all you have to do is houserule that using surges takes healing magic, and then charge an appropriate amount for potions and CLW wands. Voila! If your concerns are not just suspending your disbelief, but distaste of the mechanic, limited healing by character, or other such thing, then my suggestion may not work. However, then your concerns are no longer exclusively suspending disbelief, and should not be portrayed as such. :)
 
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Bedrockgames said:
Bottom line is this, ignoring or handwaving believability is going to lose you a large chunk of customers or potential customers. It is pretty obvious just perusing online forums like this, talking to gamers in real life, and just paying attention to my own group that believability is very important to lots of people. I don't know the precise number of people it matters to, but I am going to guess the range is something like 20-30% off hand.

The problem with that is, you'll lose 20-30% of your customers if you enforce a particular view of realism as well. Those who did go to 4e aren't going to be happy with a 3e style realism bar. There's a reason they changed to 4e.

So, you're kinda pooched either way. You're going to lose that 30% no matter what you decide.

I'm just rather happy that after 30 years of game development, things finally fell my way instead of yours.


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CJ - those last two posts are just excellent. Well said. I've often said that my beef with 3e mechanics is that the mechanics dictate the action more often than not. And, because, to borrow your terminology, they are Process Mechanics, they often make doing anything out of the box too difficult to try.

For example, my 4e Warlord frequently uses bull rush (because of a magic item that allows him to push an extra square) in combat. Because we tend to have prop filled encounter spaces, pushing someone two squares often has a fun result - such as pushing someone out the window.

Now, for me to do this in 3e would be very difficult. Bull Rush draws an AOO, which possibly does bad things to me depending on what exactly I'm bull rushing, then I have to make the opposed strength check, again, depending on what I'm pushing, my chances of success are rarely great - let's say 50%. So, I get smacked for my efforts, have only about a 50% chance of success (at best) and, if I fail, fall back prone at the target's feet, drawing easy attacks from the target plus an additional AOO for standing up.

That's just too high of a cost for pushing someone out the window. Possibly drawing 2 AOO's, plus giving a +4 bonus to a full attack from the baddy means that if I fail, I'm going to get chewed severely.

So, I can't recall ever seeing bull rush used in 3e. It might have happened, I just can't off hand recall it.

There's, for me, where the nod to realism becomes problematic. It stifles creativity because, in order to be "realistic" anything that is non-standard carries too much chance of failure. If it didn't, it would become a typical action.
 
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There's, for me, where the nod to realism becomes problematic. It stifles creativity because, in order to be "realistic" anything that is non-standard carries too much chance of failure. If it didn't, it would become a typical action.

It can just as easily go the other way, too. The base 3E rules, with the right character, make a lance user versus a slow monster total nonsense compared to what other characters can do. (This is not theoretical. It is a problem we had in our campaign.) 3.5 handled this by explicitly toning down some of the options so that a lance charge no longer followed the process logic of how lances, charges, and mounted combat worked, but to provide results more consistent with what people expected of such a charge. (I forget the exact changes as it has been awhile.)

But you'll note that you can have the same problems with the other options. If you bake in "cinematic" results too tightly, you'll frustrate people that want more grit--or vice versa. If you bake in such results with metagaming constructs to smooth out the rough edges, you'll get the complaints we here about 4E all the time (in some place or another), because to do so is to ignore process almost entirely.

This is why my preference for a "central" D&D is mainly results-based, about halfway between grit and gonzo, with dials to transparently move those results either way. Then tack on filters to make it easier to add/exclude elements that just are not going to work with your preferences (i.e. bull rushes that don't work at all, Come and Get It)--don't even pretend that everything is going to work for every preference. Then intersect the whole things with several metagaming constructs that are optional, and individually so.
 

Hussar said:
That's just too high of a cost for pushing someone out the window.

IMO, the 3e rules for most things outside of "attack with your weapon" were pretty unnecessarily complex. OAs are never any fun, IMO, period. ;)

I think this was largely a sort of "hidden class feature" of Fighters, since Improved Bull Rush and Improved Trip and the like were valuable combat feats. If you re-created an effective bull-rusher in 3e, it would have a lot more feats, and a lot fewer deliberate class features.

IMO, I think a more...blatant...way to do this might be to include "bull rush" as a martial power that has a standard attack and effect, much as 4e does. I like this change. However, I think "I push him out the window" should be available to any character -- all they might have to do is use a Page 42-like reference to perform a stunt and do it. Martial characters do it more and better, since they have a consistent ability to use.
 

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