WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[Hussar]

There's at least two examples of intelligent play in handling the last encounter.

Robilar (Rob Kuntz) fled after scooping up as much treasure as possible rather than fight the demi-lich (not sure if he touched it or not, I would guess not).

The tournament winning group that used the scepter and crown solution.

How is the first one actually intelligent behavior though? How would you know that this actually was a monster? Remember, this is 1976. You've got a skull full of honking big gems. You've already "defeated" the ghost that was guarding everything. What would tell you "Don't touch the skull"?

Now the scepter/crown thing? That's cool and creative. But, remember, you had to sacrifice at least one character (either PC or NPC) to get to that solution.

 

[jmucchiello]

4) Get a custom helmet with a solid metal visor. Attached a rod to the back (or a loop to the top- any way you can carry it while guaranteeing it's always facing away from you). Apply Sovereign Glue to the inside and capture the skull from behind like a big metal butterfly net. Now you've got a Demi-Lich-powered Death Ray! (tm) Shake > point at foe > raise visor.

Too much Belkar for you. Giant In the Playground Games

 

[GQuail]

I'm sorry to see the end of this thread. I enjoyed it a great deal and it has been the only thread I've been following on ENWorld for months. (And before it, I hadn't checked the site out in ages.)

As well as a good, in-depth analysis I also enjoyed it because during it's run I ran my 3.5-era players through a game of 1E and the Tomb of Horrors. It was interesting comparing the comments about "Smart players will do this/no-one would be fooled by that/etc" with their actual in play reaction, especially as none of them have the 1E mindset but they all knjow a bit of the modules reputation as a deathtrap.

I think this thread definitely makes it hard to argue any real logic in the traps placed in the Tomb. The dungeon is fun, yes - with the right mindset, watching your group fail and get pulped/poisoned/sex changed can be quite amusing - and you can argue that it makes sense that this mega-evil-mega-genius demilich would trap his dungeon appropriately. Still, it is hard to find any pattern of any sort and lots of moments in the dungeon do amount to guesses and random chance.

I mentioned our experience activating the many-armed gargoyle statue and how much time that took - that was enormous fun but is exactly the sort of thing the Tomb is full of. Will doing this action be positive or negative? No evidence exists to deduce it beyond just trying and hoping for the best!

I'm not sure I'd "fix" the Tomb per se, since I still found it enjoyable, but I think it's better to play up the reputation of "challenging module to get out of alive" and ignore the sentence "unless you're a superior player". Victory in the Tomb of Horrors is as likely to dependant on coin flips as it is on player skill.

 

[Bullgrit]

IMO, anyone advocating the "walkthrough" theory of the Tomb has to account (at least) for the following:

On this "walkthrough" idea:

We have reviewed everything in the ToH, now, and so we have all the answers. We have the ultimate "walkthrough." Question: Knowing everything, is it possible to go through and complete the Tomb without relying on any good luck, (or any non-bad luck)?

I think Stoat does a good job answering this question in this post: http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...ilers-spoilers-everywhere-16.html#post5763064

So it seems the answer to my question is, No, even knowing all the correct things to do and avoid, there is no way to get through the Tomb with no reliance on some luck.

What is the bare minimum party (number of characters, classes needed, levels, etc.) that can complete the Tomb? It seems that thieves and fighters aren't necessarily required, but leveled magic-users and clerics may be. The old legend about a novice thief getting through it seems bogus, unless that thief got extremely lucky with saves and used scrolls to cast certain spells. I mean, to get the second key, you have to make a spell save, and to get past the area 17? secret door requires detect magic, and either dispel magic or remove curse -- and this is just a couple situations off the top of my head, without going back and looking for others.

And something more: Say the DM is of the antagonistic bent, and wants to interpret the vague stuff in the most bastard way, (but a legitimate, rules-legal way), can he stop even Players who have read and memorized the module?

Bullgrit

 

[FoxWander]

Question: Knowing everything, is it possible to go through and complete the Tomb without relying on any good luck, (or any non-bad luck)?
<snip>
What is the bare minimum party (number of characters, classes needed, levels, etc.) that can complete the Tomb?

I think it's entirely possible to get through the Tomb without relying on luck. A single magic-user who can cast 3rd level spells (although 5th level spells makes it even easier) could get through unscathed. In fact, of the pregens in the module #10 is both the correct classes/levels and ideally equipped for the task. He (or she) can cast 3rd level spells as both a cleric and a magic-user- so the requisite detect/dispel magic is covered as well as magical healing, food, and water creation to take as long as needed. Plus he's got the Boots of Levitation which bypass 90% of the traps.

For the most part you simply follow Stoat's excellent guide, so I'll just cover the tricky parts…

• The secret door to area 14, the Chapel - Cast Knock. Who cares how hard it is to find. 1) it's quite logical to expect one to be there and 2) we're already assuming an all-knowing perspective.
• The secret door at area 17 - As stated, any cleric/m-u level 5+ can cast the necessary spells- pregen #10 is both.
• The First Key - Unseen Servant can get the first part and any number of spells can kill the ochre jelly to get the second part.
• Area 21, The Agitated Chamber - Boots of levitation FTW! Since there's no need to touch the floor anywhere in the Tomb, why should this room be any different.
• Area 23, The False/True door - Again, knowing the doors are there, cast Knock to open them both. Go down the stairs and skip the juggernaut completely.
• Area 28, The Wonderous Foyer - Avoid dealing with the Antipathy spell on the Second Key completely by picking it via Unseen Servant. Alternatively, Animate Dead is only a 3rd level cleric spell. Have an undead servant pick up and carry the key. Just bring enough to deal with a few failed saves, eventually one of them will get lucky.
• Area 29, The Valves of Mithral - To figure out the scepter/key problem again, pick a servant type, either unseen or undead. Either way, the Valves get open with no risk to you.
• Area 30, The False Treasure Room - The problem here is moving that darn statue. Luckily there's an efreet available. Or you can simply bring a block-and-tackle with enough rope to multiply the character's own strength (remember- this is one strong half-elf at an 18/62!) sufficiently.
• Area 33, The Crypt! - Honestly, this character has no real chance of "defeating" the lich aside from the crown and scepter trick. But he can still simply loot everything in sight while ignoring the fake ghost and the skull.

But there you go- a one-character walkthough that shouldn't result in a single lost hit point!

 

[Freakohollik]

A lot of posters are claiming that this is a "bomb squad" module and not a "thinking person's" module. I don't see these things as mutually exclusive and it seems that Gygax didn't either. I would say that most of the bomb squad elements are what makes this a thinking person's module.

I feel that a lot of posters think that the module should have a solution to all the problems written into the module. Instead, solutions are often left out and the task is placed soley on the party to figure out what to do. And if even if you do die, you can just get resurrected.

 

[Hussar]

Frekaohollik - the problem is though, it's billed as "thinking man's" module. Infinite monkeys typing is not a thinking man solution, it's inelegant and brute force. Some of the solutions really do come down to flipping a coin - there is no possible way to deduce the right course of action without trial and error.

I guess that's where I get off the train. If I have to simply guess the right answer, that's not thinking, that's just grunt work.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Systematic use of trial and error *is* intelligent play.

 

[MarkB]

Systematic use of trial and error *is* intelligent play.

Only if the "error" part doesn't kill you.

 

[jonesy]

Systematic use of trial and error *is* intelligent play.

I'd argue that it is a parallel issue here, and not directly causal.

Trial and error gives you a collection of experience and guidelines.

The right collection makes you intelligent.

The wrong collection just makes you likely to succumb to a dumb error.

The Tomb requires one not to stagnate to a particular style, i.e. to do what experience has shown as working in the earlier rooms, because the Tomb switches styles on you. What worked before may kill you on the next hurdle. Sometimes you've got to be all touchy feely all over the place, other times keep your fingers off or you'll lose them. So every single location requires its own set of trial and error.

Unless you're playing as Bigby.

Or doing a massive overuse of Augury.

I pity the DM who tries to run the module for a group that actually does all of the proper precautions. Oh, the time it'll take to get through one room.