D&D lovers who hate Vancian magic

[Dannyalcatraz]

You may not be satisfied with the answer, but it does answer your question.

No, it doesn't.

Because Vancian magic is viewed as something modular that can be changed without losing the integrity of the rest of D&D.

THAT, however, does at least shed some light on things.

 

[Rechan]

Yet there are also people who express vitriol vs Vancian casting that rises to the level or wanting it completely eradicated from the game...and they continued to play. That isn't my characterization- that is what some in the other thread are actually stating.

Because some people won't ever leave D&D. Because they identify most with D&D. Because they love D&D. It's their RPG.

If I may use a sports analogy, it's like die-hard fans of a team. The fans can say "Yeah our team sucks this year", but they will still watch the games, still root for the team, still pay to go to the games, hold out hope, because that's their team. They can say "Change the quarterback" or "Fire the coach", but they are still fans of the team and will never let it go.

The presence of Vancian magic isn't enough to make the fans stop playing it. Because then they wouldn't be playing D&D. In this situation, Vancian magic is the toxic uncle at Thanksgiving - you want to be there, even if that means you have to put up with him. And if somehow he didn't show up, then it's all the better.

 

[Dragonblade]

For me I love D&D. I have been playing since 1e over 20 years ago. I love its general feel (especially 4e which is my preferred edition), but I dislike the concept of an X per day resource. Yes, even 4e dailies annoy me.

And Vancian casting is the ultimate expression of a resource being balanced by only being available X times a day. I hate it. Its like nothing else in fantasy literature except D&D literature or Jack Vance's works. And its not even like his really.

That said, I don't think it needs to be gone. But it should be optional. I think there needs to be caster classes that have magical abilities or spells that aren't on a per day refresh schedule. That can be used at-will or at least more frequently than x/day. Wizards and casters should never run out of magic, or be forced to resort to crossbows, IMO.

People talk about the sense of wonder that magic should have, but I find a wizard pulling out a crossbow, or managing his spell slots, or counting the charges in his wand, to be the utter antithesis of that sense of wonder.

It also causes play and balance issues, IMO. Either you memorized all the spells you need for any given situation and are unstoppable, or you didn't and you are irrelevant or useless. Way too binary.

So no, I'm not a fan.

 

[Aldarc]

It's also worth noting on further reflection:

I personally see Vancian magic as one of D&D's defining features, something that sets it apart from other FRPGs. Something that adds to its unique character.

Not anymore. It's now a defining feature of Pathfinder as well. And Castles & Crusaders. And many other gaming systems spawned from D&D.

No, it doesn't.

THAT, however, does at least shed some light on things.

DA, my question in the response that you like work hand-in-hand. Non-Vancian fans continue to play the game because find satisfaction with the rest of the game. They see the value of D&D apart from the presence of Vancian magic, which they grudgingly bear. Vancian magic is something they perceive as an awkward clunker of mechanics that can be switched out with something that is more suitable to their taste and preferences.

Rechan is also correct. Despite the presence of all these other alternative gaming systems, D&D (for the most part) is by far the most accessible gaming system out there. So if you have difficulty scrounging up a group together to play, D&D has typically been the go-to one, thereby forcing non-Vancian fans into having to begrudgingly tolerate its presence. They may even like D&D or want to play a spellcaster, but loathe the Vancian mechanics.

 

[Greg K]

When I got into D&D, I had just started reading the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and the Once and Future King. furthermore, we had just started covering Greek mythology in English class, my drama elective class was doing Camelot, and I was already a fan of the Harryhausen Sinbad movies. And, at the time, there Holmes Basic.

What, currently, keeps me interested in D&D?
1) The settings. Greyhawk as presented by Gygax in Dragon, the GR Folio, and first GR boxed. The Forgotten Realms 1e boxed set with the 1e FR series of supplements and several of the 2e supplements. Darksun original box set, Al Quadim, Ravenloft: Realm of Terror boxed set, The Known World Gazetteers.

2) The demons and devils: Demogorgon, Orcus, Asmodeus, Geryon, etc.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

They see the value of D&D apart from the presence of Vancian magic, which they grudgingly bear. Vancian magic is something they perceive as an awkward clunker of mechanics that can be switched out with something that is more suitable to their taste and preferences.

Extremely grudgingly, judging from the rhetoric, and they soldiered on while the people who expressed a mild dislike for other elements jumped ship as soon as an alternative appeared.

That is what I'm trying to explore.

 

[Aldarc]

Extremely grudgingly, judging from the rhetoric, and they soldiered on while the people who expressed a mild dislike for other elements jumped ship as soon as an alternative appeared.

That is what I'm trying to explore.

Again, there are some things that you can remove and can't remove from D&D while it still being D&D. For example, the fact that you can create a flexible spellpoint system with Psionics in 3.5E while still being "D&D" shows that Vancian magic is not that essential to the integrity of D&D. You can switch out the spell systems, but you can't toss out some essential components such as classes or levels without looking to other systems. These things cannot be fundamentally changed, but the magic system can. But I also think that you may be overselling the idea that all these people "who expressed a mild dislike for other elements jumped ship as soon as an alternative appeared," given the number of people who remained playing with particular editions (or even Pathfinder) despite not "fixing" these other non-Vancian elements.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Again, there are some things that you can remove and can't remove from D&D while it still being D&D.

Which I agreed with as being particularly insightful.

For example, the fact that you can create a flexible spellpoint system with Psionics in 3.5E while still being "D&D" shows that Vancian magic is not that essential to the integrity of D&D.

I didnt say essential to the integrity the game- there have been a number of alternative systems in the game, like psionics, incarnum, fatigue magic, spellpoints, etc.- but rather that Vancian magic was part of D&D's unique identity.

There is a difference.

 

[Aldarc]

Which I agreed with as being particularly insightful.

Thank you. I was primarily just reiterating a point so that I could expand it a bit more.

I didnt say essential to the integrity the game- there have been a number of alternative systems in the game, like psionics, incarnum, fatigue magic, spellpoints, etc.- but rather that Vancian magic was part of D&D's unique identity.

There is a difference.

So what if spellpoints, for example, were the default for most magical classes and Vancian magic was presented as an "alternative magic system" in the rules? Sure the Vancian magic option is there, but I would imagine that it's not quite enough or satisfying, would it? Because the assumptions which the entire rules are based on would be built around spellpoints instead of Vancian magic. The literature of D&D novels often reflect the mechanics of spellcrafting, such as the explanation of the wizard Raistlin's Vancian mechanics in the first Dragonlance novel. And Vancian magic becomes something that you can do rather than how things are supposed to be.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So what if spellpoints, for example, were the default for most magical classes and Vancian magic was presented as an "alternative magic system" in the rules?

I'm not sure what your point is, here. Without Vancian casting as the default, the game would be more like other FRPGs; mechanical assumptions would be changed; the fiction would change.

So what? I think that's a fairly self evident truth.

But that is an issue of identity, not integrity. The game is perfectly playable using spell points, fatigue magic and any other magic system you'd care to name.