D&D lovers who hate Vancian magic

[SiderisAnon]

As I stated above, when I first started gaming, D&D was the only game in town.

I still love D&D because it's swords and sorcerers gaming. I love high fantasy. That's why I play D&D.

I've tried a number of other fantasy games over the years to try and get the same fun going. They've all failed. Why? Not because those games are bad but because nobody I know wants to play those games. HERO Fantasy was a couple of sessions and then everybody wanted to go back to D&D. I tried for months to get a Savage Worlds game going and finally gave up and parked the books on the shelf. FATE lasted one campaign, but only that handful is willing to play it.

Ultimately, it is far, far easier for me to use an alternative magic system in D&D than it is to get a group together to play something with a magic system I like better. (Which is why I ran a campaign using EN World's "Elements of Magic" instead.)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

This sound dangerously close to the mentality of "If you don't like Vancian magic, play another system."

That isn't what I'm saying at all.

Again, Vancian magic seems to be something of an oddity- while I've seen plenty people on ENWorld (and elsewhere) speak with vitriol about elements within D&D. They'll talk about those elements they dislike- class & level systems, the plethora of subraces, etc.- and as soon as they find a game that does things more to their liking, they play that system instead of D&D.

Vancian magic, OTOH, seems to be the one that people truly hate while simultaneously continuing to play D&D.

So there is this wierdness: people who harbor a slight dislike of elements in D&D and leave...and people who utterly hate D&D yet kept playing it.

So I'm trying to ask what was it about D&D that managed to overcome such deeply held dislikes over Vancian casting, yet didn't overcome seemingly lesser dislikes.

Let's rephrase your proposition: Is Vancian magic the only reason to play D&D?

Let's not. At least not in this thread.

Ultimately, except for some corner cases, a good RPG system should give you many reasons to play it, and D&D clearly does, IMHO.

 

[Aldarc]

That isn't what I'm saying at all.

Again, Vancian magic seems to be something of an oddity- while I've seen plenty people on ENWorld (and elsewhere) speak with vitriol about elements within D&D. They'll talk about those elements they dislike- class & level systems, the plethora of subraces, etc.- and as soon as they find a game that does things more to their liking, they play that system instead of D&D.

Vancian magic, OTOH, seems to be the one that people truly hate while simultaneously continuing to play D&D.

So there is this wierdness: people who harbor a slight dislike of elements in D&D and leave...and people who utterly hate D&D yet kept playing it.

So I'm trying to ask what was it about D&D that managed to overcome such deeply held dislikes over Vancian casting, yet didn't overcome seemingly lesser dislikes.

Because "magic" is viewed as separate from the rest of the mechanics. People have a different vision for what magic is and that's not necessarily tied to the rest of the non-magical mechanics. And people would like to play their vision of a "wizard" in D&D, which is not necessarily Vancian. That seems easy enough to understand.

Let's not. At least not in this thread.

But it answers your question of why keep playing despite Vancian magic. Because there's everything else that's not Vancian related. Why should Vancian magic be the sole reason why people play D&D?

Ultimately, except for some corner cases, a good RPG system should give you many reasons to play it, and D&D clearly does, IMHO.

Yes, in your opinion, but it's an opinion that's not necessarily shared.

 

[The Human Target]

I like fighting monsters and bedding wenches and rolling dice.

I don't like playing a spellcaster who can't cast many spells.

I don't like playing a spellcaster who has to choose from a giant list every day.

Pretty simple.

 

[Quickleaf]

Um, can we have both?

When I got into D&D I was reading LotR, Chronicles of Pyrdain, Shannara, and Earthsea, etc. I don't ever remember being particularly drawn to wizards, come to think of it I never chose to play a Vancian spell-casting class (unless forced to play the cleric ). But if the wizard class description felt more magical and let me engage with the fictional space in a more coherent way I probably would have jumped at the chance to play a wizard. Fancy words I know, just articulating in grown up voice what little me didn't quite understand.

But I loved hiking with sticks and pretending to be King Arthur's knights, so I was happy to play rogues and fighter-types. Besides they were always tougher at low levels. And then I became "the DM" and didn't look back until a few years ago.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But it answers your question of why keep playing despite Vancian magic. Because there's everything else that's not Vancian related.

No, it doesn't answer my question at all.

Again, numerous people express dissatisfaction with D&D, and when shown other options, they bolt.

Yet there are also people who express vitriol vs Vancian casting that rises to the level or wanting it completely eradicated from the game...and they continued to play. That isn't my characterization- that is what some in the other thread are actually stating.

Each class of dissatisfied players had "all the other options", yet the most dissatisfied seem to be the most determined to keep playing D&D instead of games that, presumably, they would enjoy more.

I'm trying to figure out the difference between the mildly dissatisfied abandoners of D&D and those with a deep loathing for an element yet hang on. What was it that made those players "beat their heads against the wall" until the wall fell?

Was it that the former group was "meh" about D&D while the latter was more passionately pro-D&D? If not that, then what? Did they think that D&D was so much more superior to other FRPG's even with the element they despised?

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Myself likewise.

What a bunch of old fuddy duddies we are.

The Auld Grump

 

[Jack7]

We're Auld alright...

 

[Aldarc]

No, it doesn't answer my question at all.

You may not be satisfied with the answer, but it does answer your question.

Again, numerous people express dissatisfaction with D&D, and when shown other options, they bolt.

Yet there are also people who express vitriol vs Vancian casting that rises to the level or wanting it completely eradicated from the game...and they continued to play. That isn't my characterization- that is what some in the other thread are actually stating.

Each class of dissatisfied players had "all the other options", yet the most dissatisfied seem to be the most determined to keep playing D&D instead of games that, presumably, they would enjoy more.

I'm trying to figure out the difference between the mildly dissatisfied abandoners of D&D and those with a deep loathing for an element yet hang on. What was it that made those players "beat their heads against the wall" until the wall fell?

Was it that the former group was "meh" about D&D while the latter was more passionately pro-D&D? If not that, then what? Did they think that D&D was so much more superior to other FRPG's even with the element they despised?

Because Vancian magic is viewed as something modular that can be changed without losing the integrity of the rest of D&D. Views on Vancian magic is about the philosophy of magic. Generally these other elements are about the design philosophy of the system as a whole, such as the presence of classes or levels, which are far more integral than Vancian magic.

 

[1Mac]

Apart from the fact that DnD is the near-universal gateway RPG, I like classes, scaling levels, and that the d20 mechanic covers most everything (3e was my first edition). Part of what I don't like about Vancian magic is that it's the exception to the unified d20. Skills, attacks, and ability checks work pretty much the same way, but Vancian magic is its own byzantine subsystem that is incoherent with how most of the rest of the game works and requires an enormously disproportionate body of rules to effect, compared to the more consistent elements of the game. It's hugely, needlessly inelegant.

The OP says that Vancian magic is core to what makes DnD what it is. To me it's a red-headed stepchild, out of place and incongruous with the unified rules that are the essence of the game.