Oblivion vs Skyrim...

...what you may say? Bear with me (or is it bare?)

In The Elder Scrolls Oblivion the world scaled with you, bump into some sewer rats at first level and they were 1st level rats, do it many levels later and you were facing the god of rats times many! To a certain extent 4E does as oblivion does with the exact same target numbers and exact same bonuses hard wired into the system. Now this reduces TPKs and swingyness but did 4E go to far?
IMO it did, there was too much divorce of the real world feeling to mechanical numbers. This is a nod to realism bit I guess.
So I would like to hear other posters thoughts on this and how they think we could, if it is a desirable goal, to make 5E a little less static in difficulty.

I was inspired by a post on RPG.net
Pedantic said:
The problem with using skill challenges to resolve this is that they don't actually help the roleplaying that much. Or, in my opinion, at all. Instead of all those crazy things you just described happening, the skill challenge (particularly with 4e's very limited range of skill math) comes down to an exercise in probability. There's no chance to leverage the mechanics, or the players exact interaction with the fictional world for advantage.

It's not even that skill challenge or too abstract or gamey. It's that they aren't even a game, because there's only one potential point of player interaction and that's "how can I persuade the DM to let me roll my best skill?"

For all that 3e spells offer way too much narrative power, and place all of that power in the wizard's hands, they at least gave players a way to influence the world meaningfully instead of watching the numbers tick past cloaked in flowery (but ultimately meaningless) description.

Assigning generic DCs based on player level and relative task difficulty instead of concrete fictional representation (and yes, I know that door in 4e has the same break open DC all the time and it's merely the kind of door players will see that changes, but then we're back into flowery language cloaking entirely statistical abstraction again) creates exactly the same problem.

Players can't make meaningful decisions because there all choices have equal value. You need to have some way for crazy ideas to matter. If a player can find a way to Jump over a 5' wall instead of picking a lock and have an easier time of it, then their decisions matter. If there's a set of DCs already laid out ahead of time and no matter what checks are used they will be the target numbers, you might as well be flipping coins and skip forward to the next conflict point, or dispense with the mechanics altogether and tell a fun group story.
 

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Given that I currently have a case of skyrim carpel tunnel syndrome, I think I know what you mean. I like the fact that in Skyrim, sometimes you just wander where you should not and run into a tough foe, which leads to a quick sticky end.

I dont think D and D should be too brutal but I do like to see adventuring being less static and a touch more swingy. Maybe by having monsters with low defenses and attacks but lots of hp or vice versa or skill challenges more open to practical uses of terrain or circumstance to overcome.
 

Let me agree with you in a very long-winded fashion. :)

As I see it, a basic and necessary conceit of D&D is that the challenges played out at the table are almost always those that are within the party's grasp, plus or minus a bit. Otherwise, D&D fails as a game: neither regularly failing at the impossible nor regularly succeeding at the trivial is a good use of time. I think this is a necessary goal to pursue so that D&D is a fun game.

On the second hand nearly everyone finds verisimilitude (or world engagement or whatever you want to call it) important to some degree. I don't think this is a necessary goal to pursue for D&D to be a game, but it probably is for it to be a role-playing game.

There are two basic approaches one can take when pursuing these two goals. First, one can declare that all challenges have particular probabilities (+/- a bit) regardless of what the characters are actually doing in the world. This is party or game primacy. Second, one can say that what the inherent qualities of something which can be done defines everything about the challenge, and that the mechanical capabilities of the party are essentially irrelevant (+/- a bit). This is world or verisimilitude primacy. In practice, of course, a system will be somewhere in the middle.

Like you, I tend to think 4e went a little too far on the gamist side of things, for basically the same reasons given in the RPG.net post.

I think the solution is to keep part of the best of 3e and 4e. Each was nicely consistent in one area, and poor in the other. 4e was provided good recommendations regarding the math of challenges, but no consistency as to what those challenges actually are. Meanwhile, 3e provided copious examples of specific challenges, but the qualitative feel of the math could be hilariously inconsistent from check to check. In fact, that along with the ridiculous stacking issues pretty much made the 3e skill system almost impossible to extend in cool directions. (Any skill-based casting system, for example, definitely required a gentleman's agreement not to abuse.)

The nature of the d20 impacts the specific numbers, of course, because it defines the limits and variance of what is possible. My favored rule-of-thumb is that a maximum level, maximally buffed, and maximally focused character can essentially just barely surpass on a 1 what the average untrained commoner can do on a 20. In other words, the skill system would permit DCs from 0 to 40, and pretty much nothing else. Multiples of 5 would define tiers of difficulty in an absolute sense, and be a useful guide for putting down challenges when you don't specifically care about the "relative difficulty" to the party. This is, in fact, exactly the table listed in the 3.5 skills chapter, but it was adhered to very poorly.

I think keeping both absolute and relative guidelines is important both before and during play. Before play, one can worry about either as much as one wants, building the world first or the challenge, or anything in between. During play, the big difference comes from elements that have already been described, versus those that have not. Elements that have already been described can use the absolute guidelines (say at some point the PCs wonder if they can climb the already-established rain-slick cliff) while elements that have not been described (like the PCs ask if there is a cliff they could climb) could use the relative rules if the DM want that to be an avenue forward, and then determine the sort of cliff it is if that becomes relevant.

Finally, the DM is always free to ignore these examples of absolute difficulty. One can still run the game in the 4e manner, in other words. (And in a modular 5e, jettisoning them will hopefully be less problematic with rules lawyer types.) But for those who want greater emphasis on a verisimilitudinous world, I think it is a lot harder without the absolute guidelines than it is with them.
 

I say Morrowind!

In effect, all that 4e did was strip away the pretension that through an unlikely and never-ending series of coincidences, the PCs just happen to keep facing threats appropriate to their level as they gain power. Unfortunately for the game, it turned out that a lot of DMs (and players) required that pretension to maintain their suspension of disbelief.

Oblivion's auto-scaling had a lot of mechanical and story flaws. Story-wise, it's jarring to run into bandits wearing the best items in the game because the game provides no reason for it. In D&D, if the epic-level party ran into such super-bandits, the DM would presumably have a rationale that could be discovered by the players. And if the bandits were just normal bandits, the encounter would likely be skipped or hand-waved as the PCs moved on to their latest level-appropriate adventure.
 

Well, it's all a bit of smoke & mirrors, innit?

What might help is setting DC's somewhat based on actual items in the game (kind of like what 3e did). Standard Lock? DC 10. Good Lock? DC 15. Lock on Grazz'zt's bathroom door? DC 30. Or whatever. There's a level of the challenge, and the level of the challenge doesn't necessarily change based on the party's level.

Of course, functionally, we all know to pit parties of high level against challenges of high level. But having variability helps story-based players feel like they've accomplished something (no mere bandits stand in our way!), and helps sandbox-based players feel like their choices matter (So, this dungeon was lower-level than the other one!).

I think the bigger problem pointed out by that blurb is that Skill Challenges lack meaningful player choice, and that, really, is one of SC's biggest annoyances to me, personally. But that's not really on the topic here. ;)
 

I prefer Warcraft as a model. If you as a tenth level forsaken rogue decide to go into the Western Plaguelands you will likely get killed by a "Welcome Bear". Likewise, if you as a 3rd level character go into the lair of an ice linnorm, or decide to go down a few levels from where you're already regularly fighting even encounters you will likely run into something too difficult for you and you know, die.
 

I prefer Warcraft as a model. If you as a tenth level forsaken rogue decide to go into the Western Plaguelands you will likely get killed by a "Welcome Bear". Likewise, if you as a 3rd level character go into the lair of an ice linnorm, or decide to go down a few levels from where you're already regularly fighting even encounters you will likely run into something too difficult for you and you know, die.

Aka, the Skyrim model.

Being able to reload a save makes this style of game more digestible, of course. My first fight against a dragur overlord in Skyrim took about 10 tries and there were other fights I died once and then turned around and went the other way. Doing that in a TRPG isn't very feasible, of course.

I do subscribe to that school of thought though, as long as the PCs aren't locked into a fight they can't escape from and didn't have any clue it was coming.
 

Well, it's all a bit of smoke & mirrors, innit?

What might help is setting DC's somewhat based on actual items in the game (kind of like what 3e did). Standard Lock? DC 10. Good Lock? DC 15. Lock on Grazz'zt's bathroom door? DC 30. Or whatever. There's a level of the challenge, and the level of the challenge doesn't necessarily change based on the party's level.

Of course, functionally, we all know to pit parties of high level against challenges of high level. But having variability helps story-based players feel like they've accomplished something (no mere bandits stand in our way!), and helps sandbox-based players feel like their choices matter (So, this dungeon was lower-level than the other one!).

I think the bigger problem pointed out by that blurb is that Skill Challenges lack meaningful player choice, and that, really, is one of SC's biggest annoyances to me, personally. But that's not really on the topic here. ;)

Yeah level of challenge should reflect the world as opposed to the part of the world the party finds itself reflecting the party.

[aside]

I've seen this in action of course, but I never really groked it.

I don't pit higher-level parties against higher-level challenges. Higher-level parties tend to seek out higher-level challenges for the glory and reward. A party gets offered a whole bunch of hooks at a variety of power levels and picks the ones (a) it is interested in and (b) thinks it can handle.

[/aside]
 

In effect, all that 4e did was strip away the pretension that through an unlikely and never-ending series of coincidences, the PCs just happen to keep facing threats appropriate to their level as they gain power.

Which is not a pretension that all of us follow- my preferred style is one in which the pcs can choose to face challenges of different levels, with commensurate rewards for each.

IOW, big risk = big rewards.

If my 5th level party fights a level 9 encounters, they get 9th level treasure. If they fight a level 2 encounter, they get a level 2 treasure.
 

Just so we're clear... there's nothing stopping your 1st level characters _in any edition_ from running into a giant or dragon a ton of levels higher level who kills them.

4E had more suggestions not do that (cause it can quickly turn unfun) and let you cover a wider level disparity. Yes.

Ie, PCs in 3e might run into a monster that blasphemies and autokills them, in 4E the PCs will get killed a bit slower than that, older editions you might lose a couple people due to failed saves but still pull off the win cause the DM failed his save. Still they don't necessarily work _much_ different in most (non-blasphemy-ing) cases.

Even with those 4E skill charts, note that it's still by level of the challenge, not level of the character. So if you want to monster knowledge a level 1 guy and a level 20 guy, it doesn't matter what level you are. Similarly, level 1 door vs level 10 door. Even if the DM is more likely to handwave it all and just throw level 10 doors against level 10 players, and just flip the Easy/Normal/Hard toggle instead, the option is right there and works.

Now, the better comparison for 4e -> oblivion might be to monster defenses by level. We used to have that with saving throws by hit dice, but maybe it was less obvious to players? Still, you can have your level 10 party fighting level 5s, 8s, 11s, and 14s all in the same fight if you want.
 

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