Should Epic Be In PH1?

[Li Shenron]

If Epic is going to mean simply high-level like in 4e, then it can be in the PHB, but only as long as it doesn't detract too much space from the lower levels.

I however would prefer to have an Epic that is very different from high-level, i.e. not just "scaled up". An Epic that is unbalanced, in the sense that epic characters are unbalanced compared to the rest of the world, but balance between epic characters is somewhat preserved (I think 3e didn't do a good job with this). If this would be the case, it should definitely belong to a separate manual.

 

[Daern]

Epic should be abstract

Wherever they put it, I hope epic actually means something in 5e.

So far, epic has translated strictly into "higher level" instead of into a truly epic sort of big impact kind of thing. Epic rules damn well ought to have rules for running armies- and for having your epic fighter fight an army by himself.

count me in for no epic in the core book, but I had another idea the other day as well...

Epic play should be a really different play experience. It should be a game of broad geopolitical/cosmic strategy. What does that sound like? The backstory for Magic Cards! Here is the opportunity for integration. Epic characters as Planeswalkers or the equivalent. Epic scenarios and epic abilities should be on a broad scale appropriate for leading armies (if you are a fighter) or summoning them (If you are a wizard)

anyways...

 

[Dice4Hire]

Actually I would not put paragon in the PHBI either. If the PHBI for 4E had only gone up to 10th level, a lot of other stuff could have been put in it.

 

[delericho]

I'm really torn. On the one hand, if it isn't in the Core then it won't ever get decent support. Hell, in 4e it didn't get enough support despite being in the Core.

On the other hand, I'm very much in favour of putting the Core on a serious diet. And, if something can't be properly supported in the Core, I want it dropped so other things can be properly supported. And Epic play is a prime candidate for that.

As I said on another thread, I think my preference is to have a 5-level Beginner tier (with reduced complexity), then the three 10-level tiers (Heroic, Paragon, Epic). I would then suggest that the Starter Set cover the Beginner tier, and the Core Rulebook the Beginner and Heroic tiers.

The Paragon and Epic tiers should then be covered later. But they should be covered together - there's certainly enough demand for the Paragon tier to need support, and that allows the Epic tier to ride its coattails, if you will.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think the rule system itself has to support something like a level range of 1 to 30.

But the first rulebook itself with which you start the game? I think 10 levels could be sufficient already. (Starter Sets could even do with 3 to 5 levels.)

 

[Knightfall]

Put me in the camp that is torn in two. I really, really like the idea of Epic play being put into the core of the game from the get go. Epic-level play cannot be something that is just tacked on. This was the problem in 3e. It didn't feel like a true continuation of the game.

However, having the Epic-levels in the 4E PHB made each class take up way too much space. If the structure of 5E is going to emulate 4E at all (I hope not) then the Epic levels should be saved for a later book.

Perhaps there should simply be a Epic-level appendix in the DMG to start. It tells you the basics of how it will work and that DMs should consider how they want to approach high-level play. WotC could release an Epic-level playtest PDF when the PHB/DMG/MM first hit the shelves.

 

[Nebulous]

I'm guessing that I'm in the minority, but I think WotC made a mistake by including epic in the PH1. It required a bunch of pages when you add up the powers of the various classes and -- even with that -- there has never been especially good support.

Moreover, having epic as a core part of the game suggests to DMs that a "typical" campaign should run through all three tiers. There are lots of good stories that finish with epic play, but many (if not most) good campaign stories finish with a lower level nemesis. In much the same way that I think 4e had too much rules weight on combat (even though it works fine for a low-combat game), I also think that 4e put too much emphasis on campaigns that start with 1st level characters and end with fighting a god or demon lord. That's fun and it should be supported, but it shouldn't be the prototype.

I'd rather see epic support placed in its own supplement(s). I want to see solid epic support, but it needs its own page count and it shouldn't be crammed into the PH. It would also be nice if enough powers scaled up on their own that epic powers could focus on abilities unique to epic level characters and not just more bad-ass versions of abilities the characters had been using the whole time.

-KS

No, i 100% agree. Every bit of 4e powers info level 21+ was a waste of space for me. I would have much preferred this be bundled into its own "Immortals Handbook" or something and given a full makeover, although with campaign advice for epic play, for those gamers that want that.

 

[BASHMAN]

I agree with the OP. Putting the Epic stuff in the core book, while leaving out gnomes, bards, half-orcs, barbarians, etc, seemed like they were trying to pawn off something they knew most people wouldn't buy to sell something they knew most people would buy later.

 

[Dragonblade]

Epic should be core and should be part of the game. Otherwise it never gets supported. 3e Epic was a lame add-on that never worked quite right. 4e epic sort of worked, but it was mostly heroic tier style skirmishes with bigger numbers. Instead of fighting 4 orcs, you fight 4 demons. Thats not what I want in epic.

Epic needs to be different. It needs to be big and vast in scale and scope. It should involve immortals wrangling over worshippers across the world, conquering planes, managing empires, armies clashing and so on. Thats the kind of stuff we did in our "epic" 1e games. It should be about leading an army to stop Orcus from overrunning the planet with endless hordes of undead.

 

[kitsune9]

If WotC really simplifies the core game, we could go to level 36 like BECM does. However, I think going to a lower level limit like back to 20th level will help toward reducing page count and open the door for epic modularity.