Class Balance - why?

[Elf Witch]

So there is "not a balance issue" because you houseruled away "something that game breaking"?

Isn't this the textbook definition of the Oberoni Fallacy?

You realize that for most characters using the point buys recommended in the DMG 32 is consider high powered to get an 18 you have to spend 16 points. That leaves you 16 points for all your other stats. I have played with a 22 point buy which is considered a challenging campaign if try and start with a 18 you will only have 6 points left.

Now since we only use core races non of them get a +2 to intelligence.

So there is no way to start with a 20 in intelligence which is what some are saying all the wizards are doing.

The reason I house rule the cap on 18 is not because of the wizards but to stop elves from having an 20 in dex or dwarves having a 20 in con.

 

[Elf Witch]

Yes. They were the best race for Wizard. So all the Wizards were that race. Even the couple who decided to be another race for roleplaying reasons still started at 18. It doesn't hinder the power of the character that badly to lose 2 Int. It's a bonus spell or 2 and 1 point of DC on your spells.

This is what drives me crazy people complaining about wizards being over powered in 3.5 then using examples that are not in the core books. I am going to be the first one to admit that once you start adding stuff from splat books and non core races it can change the balance quite a bit.

But using core races only you are not starting with a 20 in intelligence. And if you want an 18 you can have it but if you are using point buy at 32 then the rest of your stats are going to be great.

99% of the time the only races we have available to us is from the core books. I don't think I have ever seen a grey/high/gold elf as a choice outside of a Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign I played in.

 

[Elf Witch]

Well, the rules say to point buy your stats and then apply racial bonuses on top. You can certainly fix that in your game, but it isn't the rules. Every wizard I ever played with started with a 20 Int, since it makes nearly no sense not to.


It IS odd. The problem is that the CR and EL system breaks down the more enemies you use. For instance, if your party is level 12, then you want to throw an EL 15 encounter to challenge most parties. That means either 1 CR15 monster, 2 CR13 monsters, 4 CR11 monsters, or 8 CR9 monsters.

CR9 monsters generally have such low hitpoints, AC, saving throws and attack bonuses, that they can barely hit a proper level 12 party and die in 1 or two hits from parties of that level. So, if you follow the EL guidelines on how to make encounters, you are using extremely weak monsters if you use 8 of them in the same encounter. These are the encounters that is isn't worth wasting spells in.


They cost 36,000 gp. If your DM is following the wealth by level guidelines that means that a level 9 character can buy one with ALL of his/her gold. However, the requirements to craft one are to be level 8 and 18,000 gp. Which you should be able to have with money to spare once you are level 11+. +4 items should be able to be crafted without a problem at level 8.

I'm normally in agreement that DMs should follow the RAI whenever possible. However, I don't see anything that even points to this not being RAI. It's a magic item in the DMG. It explains how to craft them. It isn't some magical abuse of the rules. And it was perfectly allowed and done in Living Greyhawk, the official campaign of WOTC.

By the time level 18+ came along, our characters had upgraded to magic items that gave +6 to all stats.


So...if a DM follows the rules in the book, then there is an issue with the DM? The CR system is designed to be used with the rules in the book. That includes all the stat items when you can afford them.

It's that the system allows people to become unbalanced. Which is a problem. I think the real issue is that a DM needs to work AROUND the rules in order to fix the system.

As I said in my other post if you use the core races you can't get an 20 in intelligence. If a DM is going to allow races in that are not core then he needs to realize that he may have a balance issue.

You know you can throw lower level creatures at them as well basically minions. I have never played where we just faced one bad guy unless it was something major like a dragon. And it takes a team to take down a dragon. Sure you may get very very lucky and take it out with a save VS death spell but their saves tend to be to good for that. They roll a 1 goodbye. And yes at that instant the wizard shines. But in 30 years of playing I saw this happen once. I was playing a cleric and I was so glad the wizard pulled it off because we were the last ones still alive and I had 2 hit points left.

Also we rarely reach the BBEG at full strength we have had to fight our way to him. I can't think of any big encounter that we took on fully rested usually you have several layers of his hirelings to get through first.

That is the way I design my encounters and it seems to be the way Pazio designs their adventure paths.

As for a +6 at 9 level first of all 9 level is not what I consider low. Secondly that is all their wealth so if they want a +6 they can't have anything else without going over their wealth level. Even if it costs only 18 000 to make it still counts as 36 000 for determining wealth levels.

So if you stick with the RAW it will be unusual to see any character with a +6 item as early as 9 level. You do count their weapons, armor, potions , scrolls, wands as well as gems and gold as wealth.

 

[Belphanior]

You realize that for most characters using the point buys recommended in the DMG 32 is consider high powered to get an 18 you have to spend 16 points. That leaves you 16 points for all your other stats. I have played with a 22 point buy which is considered a challenging campaign if try and start with a 18 you will only have 6 points left.

Now since we only use core races non of them get a +2 to intelligence.

So there is no way to start with a 20 in intelligence which is what some are saying all the wizards are doing.

The reason I house rule the cap on 18 is not because of the wizards but to stop elves from having an 20 in dex or dwarves having a 20 in con.

I was referring to the way you handle +6 stat items.

You said: "I don't care if a +6 item can be made at lower levels it is not happening in my game I am the DM and I will not allow something that game breaking in that early."

This is what the "that game breaking" came from. So, you clearly know and admit that this is game breaking. And your solution is to houserule it. Which is not unreasonable per se, but I don't understand how you can end the very same post with saying there's no balance issue. Yes there is an issue, why else did you need to houserule it?

 

[Elf Witch]

I was referring to the way you handle +6 stat items.

You said: "I don't care if a +6 item can be made at lower levels it is not happening in my game I am the DM and I will not allow something that game breaking in that early."

This is what the "that game breaking" came from. So, you clearly know and admit that this is game breaking. And your solution is to houserule it. Which is not unreasonable per se, but I don't understand how you can end the very same post with saying there's no balance issue. Yes there is an issue, why else did you need to houserule it?

It was a miscommunication when he was saying they were getting +6 as soon as possible which I took to be before at least 10. I will admit I am not familiar with every rule out of every splat book so when I said I would not allow it even if it was in the RAW I thougt they had figured out a way to bring a +6 in at an earlier level.

I don't think a +6 is game breaking once you get into the teens of levels.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

Well, the rules say to point buy your stats and then apply racial bonuses on top. You can certainly fix that in your game, but it isn't the rules. Every wizard I ever played with started with a 20 Int, since it makes nearly no sense not to.

Do you mean it makes no sense to make a human wizard? Cool...

 

[Hassassin]

Now since we only use core races non of them get a +2 to intelligence.

The gray elf is in the monster manual as an elven subrace. (Isn't that core?) Similar subraces exist by other names in at least FR and Dragonlance campaign settings.

In any case any one such +2 isn't going to break the game by itself. When you hunt the splatbooks for many such bonuses (including wishlist or crafted magic items) that stack and select the right spells, they will alter the game.

I think 5e should mostly remove ability score increases, and not use 3e-like complex stacking rules.

 

[Elf Witch]

The gray elf is in the monster manual as an elven subrace. (Isn't that core?) Similar subraces exist by other names in at least FR and Dragonlance campaign settings.

In any case any one such +2 isn't going to break the game by itself. When you hunt the splatbooks for many such bonuses (including wishlist or crafted magic items) that stack and select the right spells, they will alter the game.

I think 5e should mostly remove ability score increases, and not use 3e-like complex stacking rules.

I don't consider it core it is a DM approval thing not something players should just be able to bring into the game. I consider the core races for players the ones in the players handbook.

l I guess we play differently because when we play with a 32 point buy none of us start with an 18 unless it is because of a race adjustment to get up to that. By wizard I am playing started at a 16.


I have to agree I would like to see a lot of that toned down.

 

[DonTadow]

I don't consider it core it is a DM approval thing not something players should just be able to bring into the game. I consider the core races for players the ones in the players handbook.

l I guess we play differently because when we play with a 32 point buy none of us start with an 18 unless it is because of a race adjustment to get up to that. By wizard I am playing started at a 16.


I have to agree I would like to see a lot of that toned down.

I 100 percent agree with you. If you can't support your argument with core books, the argument is broken.

But that's also why I like a system with multiple methods of rolling abilities and whereas i hope 5e has a point buy or an array system as default and the rolling system as an option.

If you allow every book, anything and everything can and will be broken. Heck, with just a core book and a few splats (and a lingient DM) we erased time once.

 

[hanez]

It always bugs me when players search splat books for that perfect +2 race. They end up playing a race they could care less about just for the stat mod. Thats when they find out the world has a sect looking to destroy this race Hahahah jk... sort of.

I agree this kind of thing should be toned down. Races should be interesting and fun, they should grant cool powers, cantrips, effects and have culture added to them, not stat bonuses as they add very lil to the game. (See Arcana Evolved for a mostly awesome way to make Races cool and interesting)