Is math a flaw?

[darkwing]

The other mechanic is basically a coin flip.

This is the problem. The belief that there are only 2 viable mechanics to an RPG. I used to think that cards had no place in a war game. Then I played Fortress America. We need creativity in game design, not just another variant of already published material.

 

[Celebrim]

We need creativity in game design, not just another variant of already published material.

Sure. Creativity is good, but mechanical creativity in proposition resolution is hardly the be all end all of creativity. How player propositions are mechanically resolved is an important part of game design, but its not the entire system nor is system all there is to a good game.

Dice are used as fortune mechanics for pretty good reasons, one of which is that dice throws are independent events whose outcome isn't effected by previous throws. Very few other readily available randomizers have that quality, and the ones that do probably can be simulated with dice. You could use cards, but you open up card counting and with reduced randomness. Once you've made the decision to use dice, there are very few ways to interpret the outcome.

And sometimes, it turns out that the reason that things have always been done this way is not a lack of creativity. I'm all for experimental proposition mechanics like using a Jenga tower - that's genious. But I also think that reinventing the wheel for its own sake isn't necessarily that bright.

And with respecting your complaint against me particularly, I've already demonstrated in the thread and elsewhere that I can create. There may be a game for which cards are a viable fortune mechanic, but it would have to be a game where the weaknesses of the mechanic became strengths within the setting. You'd need a setting where the card counting and the reduced randomness influenced player choices in ways that made sense for the story being told. Maybe you want to rig fortune in such a way that the player can't lose, or can't win. Maybe you want a system that reduces player choice, so that they can only offer propositions from a list of those on the cards, or maybe you want a system where the players know the outcome of their propositions when they make them. Such a setting/genera may exist, but its not at all clear to me that the mechanic has broad application or that resulting game would appeal to a large segment of the gaming community. I can see running Fiasco style game with cards maybe, with each player holding a deck that was stacked against them, but theater style RPGs are likely to always be a niche market compared to RPGs that stay closer to the war gaming side of their roots. And RPGs don't need cards for the usual purpose they are put to in Wargames, and could emulate those purposes with dice should they want to.

 

[darkwing]

Sure. Creativity is good, but mechanical creativity in proposition resolution is hardly the be all end all of creativity.

Of course not, but if you're going to make just another dice game why not take one of the RPG systems already on the market and make new character classes and/or scenarios instead of rewriting everything from scratch?

And with respecting your complaint against me particularly, I've already demonstrated in the thread and elsewhere that I can create.

First of all, if you take criticism of game design as criticism of you personally, you're going to fail. I don't know you from Adam, so why would I go out of my way to complain about you? I just care about game design and as a player am looking for something different. Furthermore, gamers are a critical bunch. You're in for a world of hurt if you take everything personally.

There may be a game for which cards are a viable fortune mechanic, but it would have to be a game where the weaknesses of the mechanic became strengths within the setting.

Have you played Race for the Galaxy? The cards aren't "stacked against you" but they do limit your options and enforce the certain creativity of "Here are the tools I can use, how can I best use them?". It might suck as an RPG concept or it might be cool, I don't know. But what I do know is that it would be a fairly unique mechanic in an RPG.

 

[eamon]

Almost certainly too much number crunching - that is, unless you can avoid all modifiers and just do straightforward computation.

In general, I think that d20 is probably already unnecessarily complex; certainly modifiers as in D&D are just a waste of time (frequently double-digit modifiers with double-digit targets; i.e. the whole exercise could equivalently have been achieved with lower overall levels).

Also: it's really easy to make something more complicated. It's hard to make something easier. So, start off with something as simple as possible.

 

[Celebrim]

Of course not, but if you're going to make just another dice game why not take one of the RPG systems already on the market and make new character classes and/or scenarios instead of rewriting everything from scratch?

Good question; why would you? I asked the OP more or less the same thing.

More most commonly played genera's I think there is a pretty good system out there. Some of the ones that I like are Chaosium CoC, Chill 2e, D&D 3e, M&M, and WEG Star Wars 1e. Some of the ones that read good on paper at least as a system are Dogs in the Vineyard, Spirit of the Century, Dread, and Aces and Eights, all of which I might considering running for the right story that played to their strengths.

But just an example, I once tried to run a War Against the Chtorr game - near future science fiction horror - using GURPS/GULLIVER. In addition to other problems, the system was a real drag on the game. However, I can't off the top of my head think of a better system. The closest I can manage is Chaosium CoC, but it lacks somewhat in the gritty military feel I need for a game in which you really are meant to fight (and win!) against the monsters and it doesn't have (to my knowledge) a future tech type source book. So if I wanted to rerun War Against the Chtorr, I'd probably roll my own setting losely based off CoC and, to answer my own question, it would probably look a lot like the D% system I outlined in the rough earlier which was also roughly based off of the BRP system.

First of all, if you take criticism of game design as criticism of you personally, you're going to fail. I don't know you from Adam, so why would I go out of my way to complain about you?

It's the internet? Whatever your intention, you didn't criticize game design in general but my particular take on it. I have no idea if my thoughts about game design are wide spread or would be accepted within the professional design community (of which I'm not a part). They are merely my understanding of game design based on what I do to make myself and my players happy, and I don't speak for the larger community. If you respond to my claims, you aren't attacking the larger community or debunking the larger community. You are just trying to debunk my perspective on the situation.

I just care about game design and as a player am looking for something different.

Which is great. There are plenty of Indy games out there with experimental fortune mechanics. And I should note that I was explicitly discussing dice as a fortune mechanic. I never said that dice were the only possible fortune mechanic. I was explicitly addressing the complaint that games involved 'too much adding and subtracting numbers', by expressing my opinion that ultimately 'adding and subtracting numbers' is the simpliestand most accessible general system of proposition resolution.

Have you played Race for the Galaxy? The cards aren't "stacked against you" but they do limit your options and enforce the certain creativity of "Here are the tools I can use, how can I best use them?".

I keep noticing that you keep bringing up non RPG games as your inspiration. Why should you believe that something from a non-RPG game necessarily translates to an RPG? Non-RPGs tend to be competitive games that depend on having highly constrained player choice to create tactical situations and limit the scope of the play space. Most RPGs aren't trying to limit the scope of player freedom, have open ended place space, are cooperative, and mechanics which take away player freedom have generally not been embraced.

No, I haven't played Race for the Galaxy but I'm familiar with it from its parentage in Puerto Rico and San Juan. The particular group I was playing with at the time strongly prefered Dominion to Race, so that's what I played. You can take it for granted that I'm familiar with a wide variaty of modern European inspired board games, collectible card games, video games, traditional card games, traditional board games, war games, theater games, and play ground games. (Not so much experienced with drinking games, which I wouldn't advise basing an RPG around.)

Implementing cards as a fortune mechanic or game peice is something several RPGs have tried to do (I haven't played them, but I think the latest Gamma World incarnation, Everway, and the latest Warhammer incarnation all have used cards in various ways). I general, it has numerous problems, not the least of which is that you have to convince gamers to invest in the probably highly specialized cards that the game needs. And you'd probably for an RPG need slightly different cards for each character or a set for each player if you made cards central to gameplay. Plus you have the problem that most card games are played out in 30 minutes or less, but RPGs are not. So you'd have to find a way to easily preserve game state between sessions, which isn't easy with cards.

It might suck as an RPG concept or it might be cool, I don't know. But what I do know is that it would be a fairly unique mechanic in an RPG.

Fairly unique, but not completely unique. So far I've never seen it used where it felt necessary or added a lot to the game, though I admit low familiarity with Everway. Then again, for whatever reason, Everway didn't catch on.

 

[darkwing]

I keep noticing that you keep bringing up non RPG games as your inspiration. Why should you believe that something from a non-RPG game necessarily translates to an RPG?

Just trying to avoid tunnel-vision. I'm tired of reading threads like the OP saying "Hey guys, I've got an idea for an RPG. The mechanics are almost exactly like d20 but I've improved it by using d100! That's like 5x the power!"

Non-RPGs tend to be competitive games that depend on having highly constrained player choice to create tactical situations and limit the scope of the play space. Most RPGs aren't trying to limit the scope of player freedom, have open ended place space, are cooperative, and mechanics which take away player freedom have generally not been embraced.

RPGs are competitive between the Player's characters and the DM's monsters. If you don't like my previous examples look at cooperative games like Pandemic. The point isn't any particular example though, the point is to look beyond the current RPG offerings to find inspiration. It just happens that other gaming genres are a reasonably decent place to start looking for that inspiration.

I general, it has numerous problems, not the least of which is that you have to convince gamers to invest in the probably highly specialized cards that the game needs. And you'd probably for an RPG need slightly different cards for each character or a set for each player if you made cards central to gameplay. Plus you have the problem that most card games are played out in 30 minutes or less, but RPGs are not. So you'd have to find a way to easily preserve game state between sessions, which isn't easy with cards.

It's going to be hard to convince gamers to go with anything that isn't already published. Once you get past that hurdle, unique cards are one way to make money off of the idea. As far as the timing concern goes, I have to reiterate that I'm not actually designing an RPG. Those kinds of issue are best left to a competent designer/design team to work through.

 

[AllPurposeNerd]

Wow, three pages later.

I decided to divide all the level-up bonuses by 10. Instead of gaining +1, +2, +3, it's 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 and only the integer portion of the total score is added to the die roll, which is now 1d10 instead of d%. Conveniently, this reduces both damage and hp by the same amount without having to reword anything else.

I was worried that the numbers would feel kind of small and the differences kind of coarse, but I can't really hear any of that over how fast the combat is moving.

Thanks for all your verbose help.