Shroomy
Adventurer
I doubt that...I'm pretty sure they're not meant to be taken too seriously and are geared more to generating a discussion.
D&D 5E D&D Next Blog - Wizards Like to Roll Dice Too
I doubt that...I'm pretty sure they're not meant to be taken too seriously and are geared more to generating a discussion.
catsclaw227
First Post
OK. me? For SKILLS, I used taking 10 or taking 20 against inanimate objects or unintelligent animals. But if it's against any semi-intelligent creature I would find a way to make it opposed.
But these situations get weird from table to table because of the whole Social vs. non-Social skills argument. (A 30-part, multi-year 2001-2012 argument.)
And that is good. It means D&D can be different from one table to the next.
For COMBAT, I like the attack against a fixed DC. it is universal, understood and doesn't take people out of character. It's been around forever.
So whether magic or martial, a To-Hit is a To-Hit.
But these situations get weird from table to table because of the whole Social vs. non-Social skills argument. (A 30-part, multi-year 2001-2012 argument.)
And that is good. It means D&D can be different from one table to the next.
For COMBAT, I like the attack against a fixed DC. it is universal, understood and doesn't take people out of character. It's been around forever.
So whether magic or martial, a To-Hit is a To-Hit.
Just a few thoughts on spells;
1> Damage spells: I feel these already have a 'save' mechanic built into them with the rolling of the damage dice. A 5d6 fireball can do anywhere from 5 to 30 damage. A bad roll and the damage is poor and evidently the spell didn't do much in the world. There is no need to apply an additional 'save' on top of the damage roll. If 5d6 is considered too much damage to take in one 'blow' then change it to either less damage or increase the level that the spell is acquired to make 5d6 appropriate to the fight. It is faster ans simpler to handle in game play.
2> Save or Die/Petrify/FUBAR spells: Many of these spells have already have had the effects changed to be more a series of effects with multiple saves before the final effect is imposed. Sleep starts with slow and goes to unconscious. Petrify starts with slow, goes to immobilize, and ends with petrify. The multiple chances for recovery and rounds taken before final implementation allows the player and team to react with saving magics or techniques. I would suggest that 'solo' monsters only have portions of their bodies affected by these spells rather then their whole game value being decided on a couple of saves. Polymorph spells would render an area non-functional until 'healed' on a solo and require a Polymorph to be applied to every major area of the creature for a full transformation (dragons are hard to turn into sheep as a result while an ogre would be easy as it is only a single application).
3> Penalty Spells ~ Debuffs: They work on targets but only the biggest penalty of all types of effects applied is used for calculation. This means, Rash of Irritation for -1 to attack and Chains of Rapture for -3 to attack (Spell names made up) result in a total of -3 penalty to attack and not -4. Again, when dealing with solo opponents I would have the penalty only being applied to one set of attacks on the creature (players would have choice of wings, head, tail, and claws on a dragon as the different areas to apply modifiers). Group affecting modifiers would hit two areas on a solo but otherwise affect the normal limit for the spell on a regular group.
4> Other Spells (not damage, save or die, not penalty): These just work though they have obvious signs of magical nature unless specifically detailed in the spell (invisibility would be an example). This means that most spells have some way of being 'detected' if someone is looking for the effect (illusions spells might have a higher level of difficulty then a summoning spell to determine magic was being used).
1> Damage spells: I feel these already have a 'save' mechanic built into them with the rolling of the damage dice. A 5d6 fireball can do anywhere from 5 to 30 damage. A bad roll and the damage is poor and evidently the spell didn't do much in the world. There is no need to apply an additional 'save' on top of the damage roll. If 5d6 is considered too much damage to take in one 'blow' then change it to either less damage or increase the level that the spell is acquired to make 5d6 appropriate to the fight. It is faster ans simpler to handle in game play.
2> Save or Die/Petrify/FUBAR spells: Many of these spells have already have had the effects changed to be more a series of effects with multiple saves before the final effect is imposed. Sleep starts with slow and goes to unconscious. Petrify starts with slow, goes to immobilize, and ends with petrify. The multiple chances for recovery and rounds taken before final implementation allows the player and team to react with saving magics or techniques. I would suggest that 'solo' monsters only have portions of their bodies affected by these spells rather then their whole game value being decided on a couple of saves. Polymorph spells would render an area non-functional until 'healed' on a solo and require a Polymorph to be applied to every major area of the creature for a full transformation (dragons are hard to turn into sheep as a result while an ogre would be easy as it is only a single application).
3> Penalty Spells ~ Debuffs: They work on targets but only the biggest penalty of all types of effects applied is used for calculation. This means, Rash of Irritation for -1 to attack and Chains of Rapture for -3 to attack (Spell names made up) result in a total of -3 penalty to attack and not -4. Again, when dealing with solo opponents I would have the penalty only being applied to one set of attacks on the creature (players would have choice of wings, head, tail, and claws on a dragon as the different areas to apply modifiers). Group affecting modifiers would hit two areas on a solo but otherwise affect the normal limit for the spell on a regular group.
4> Other Spells (not damage, save or die, not penalty): These just work though they have obvious signs of magical nature unless specifically detailed in the spell (invisibility would be an example). This means that most spells have some way of being 'detected' if someone is looking for the effect (illusions spells might have a higher level of difficulty then a summoning spell to determine magic was being used).
Oni
First Post
I like the idea of the traditional saving throw because it makes affecting someone with magic mechanically different from attacking someone with a weapon. I think that makes each of those activities, and consequently the classes involved with those activities, feel more distinctive from one another in play. This is important to me because I believe part of the choice of which class to play is a choice of what kind of gameplay experience the player wants, and the more distinct those options are the more distinct and meaningful the player's choice will be.
Jack99
Adventurer
Could it be that Monte is referring to saves as seen up until 4e - which is pretty much gone. Sure, there is still something called a saving throw, but let's be honest, we might as well toss a coin, if it were not for a few modifiers at time.
Look, Monte has never been my favorite designer. I shipped 3.0 and 3.5 is still my least favorite edition of DND. But give the man a break and some respect. Stop assuming the worst every time something is posted. Just because it's possible to twist and misunderstand something he writes about 4e doesn't mean it should be.
The Shadow
Hero
I for one like the idea of magic having a somewhat different mechanic from combat. It *should* feel different.
What's more, the swingier opposed roll just 'feels' right somehow for magic. It's less predictable.
That said, having minions take 10 is quite reasonable and will speed play. I wouldn't do this for non-minions, myself, but of course others may disagree.
What's more, the swingier opposed roll just 'feels' right somehow for magic. It's less predictable.
That said, having minions take 10 is quite reasonable and will speed play. I wouldn't do this for non-minions, myself, but of course others may disagree.
Fede
First Post
I had a hard time choosing how to answer.
Not because I'm undecided, I know that I prefer attack rolls against a static defense for both normal attacks and magic (like in 4E), but because the polls are badly constructed.
And it really makes me wonder if, as someone before me speculated, they are really polls to get our feedback or only to support what they already think.
Not because I'm undecided, I know that I prefer attack rolls against a static defense for both normal attacks and magic (like in 4E), but because the polls are badly constructed.
And it really makes me wonder if, as someone before me speculated, they are really polls to get our feedback or only to support what they already think.
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Opposed rolls are less swingy.
If you mean (A+ d20) vs (B + d20).
This comes down to +d20-d20 vs B-A (rather than d20 vs (B+10)-A ??)
The shape of a the probability distribution of d20-d20 is the same as d20+d20, if that helps see the shape.#
For d20-d20 there are 20/400 ways to get a result of 0. There is one way to get a result of +19 and 1 way to get -19.
[# Equally the result of d6-d6 is equivalent to 2d6-7 - and not the same as d11-6.]
Tony Vargas
Legend
What exactly do we mean by 'swingy' anyway?
Can't we have it all?
Conjurations (Acid Arrow), Transmutations (Polymorph), and Illusions (Color Spray) are Attacks vs DCs
These would be Str or Dex based as they are aimed attacks. Int is just used for more spells and learning requirements.
Evocations (Fireball), Necromancy (Scare), and Enchantments (Hold Person) are DC vs Saving throws.
The target saves against the wizard's Int score.
Everyone wins!
Conjurations (Acid Arrow), Transmutations (Polymorph), and Illusions (Color Spray) are Attacks vs DCs
These would be Str or Dex based as they are aimed attacks. Int is just used for more spells and learning requirements.
Evocations (Fireball), Necromancy (Scare), and Enchantments (Hold Person) are DC vs Saving throws.
The target saves against the wizard's Int score.
Everyone wins!
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