Savage Worlds - do you tweak how skills work?

[Piratecat]

I ran Savage Worlds for the first time this weekend and generally really liked it. My big complaint is how the skills work. You get a d4-2 in skills you aren't trained in. There's no direct relationship between a skill and the skills that derive from it, so you could have a d12 in Agility and still be d4-2 in shooting if you haven't improved the skill. This continues to irk me; in a genre where I want a fast, lithe hero to be good at all sorts of agility skills, it seems really weird to me that there's no benefit from the high agility score.

A better game for modeling this may be the Cortex system used in Leverage. There, you'd get a die for your role (for instance, a d10 for Thief) + a die for the ability used (such as a d8 for Agility.) Getting the benefit from your abilities is how my brain keeps wanting Savage Worlds to work.

So what do other people think? Is it just me? Is there a good solution I'm missing?

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

I actually haven't thought much about this, but I do see what you're saying.

The only benefit that Savage Worlds offers is a cheaper cost until your Skill die equals the linked Attribute die.

Not sure about a good solution, without reworking the trait system, though. Hmmm...

One possibility:

All untrained skills are at Attribute -2, training costs 1 at character creation, improving a skill (exceeding the attribute score) costs 2 per die at character creation. At each advance train two skills or improve one skill.

This will increase the "power level" of the Savage Worlds skill system, but it is the first solution that popped in my head. I haven't put any thought into the implications.

 

[Siberys]

You could have untrained be x steps below the associated attribute; for example, perhaps it's two steps down; d4 uses d4-2 for untrained; d6 d4-1, d8 uses d4, d10 uses d6, et cetera. However, that's a pretty big staight power-up, so three or more steps might be better, with a minimum of d4-2.

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

You could have untrained be x steps below the associated attribute; for example, perhaps it's two steps down; d4 uses d4-2 for untrained; d6 d4-1, d8 uses d4, d10 uses d6, et cetera. However, that's a pretty big staight power-up, so three or more steps might be better, with a minimum of d4-2.

I think, because of the way Savage Worlds handles it, any solution that accomplishes what P-Kitty wants is going to be a straight power-up.



EDIT: Now I can't get this out of my mind. I'm either going to have to house-rule it or I might find myself leaning toward another system...eep! Thanks a lot, Piratecat!

 

[Is_907]

I figure between the d4 and your wild die, you have a pretty good chance.
Just don't forget to roll the wild die...

 

[amerigoV]

A better game for modeling this may be the Cortex system used in Leverage. There, you'd get a die for your role (for instance, a d10 for Thief) + a die for the ability used (such as a d8 for Agility.) Getting the benefit from your abilities is how my brain keeps wanting Savage Worlds to work.

So what do other people think? Is it just me? Is there a good solution I'm missing?

Welcome to a better world (Savage!)

Those who first play the game tend to have that complaint, so you are not alone. But I urge you to play the game for awhile and not tinker. There is a ton of elegance in the system and making that change has a cascading effect.

High abilities are reflected in that its easier to learn an associated skill (you learn at half cost). Also, its cheaper to pick up a skill at character creation than later (so if you think you will eventually use Shooting, pick it up at creation and increase it later when you want).

Untrained means you have no idea what you are doing. Lets take fighting - I am sure the first time someone steps into the boxing ring with someone who knows what they are doing will get their clock cleaned (d4-2). Now, you might learn quick if you have natural ability, but it is a skill, and it must be learned (just like D&D must be UnLearned ). Let take it to another skill - survival (Smarts). If you have no basic survival training, you are not going to survive if you get dumped in the desert. Being Smart allows you to learn, but it does not magically give you all the options.

Plus, you will find them d4's Ace alot in critical situations. That is a great representation of beginners luck.

Finally, the ability scores in Savage Worlds are much more important than in (say) D&D. Agility tricks, Smarts Tricks, Vigor rolls (Soaking damage), Spirit to come off Shaken, and Str for damage. Making them even more important will really skew the game in favor of Ability scores (which pulls people away from taking cool stuff like Edges or Skills when they get an Advance).

(also doing it like Cortex is a huge shift in concept - like saying 3d6 to roll to hit for D&D instead of d20 - its a much different game despite the similarities on the surface).

You should pop over to PEG's website. Clint Black, the official question answer can give you much more information about this is a much more eloquent way than I just laid out.


an aside - for a Wild Card, you have a flat 35% of succeeding if my quick math works - a .1875 chance to get an ace and more than 1 on a d4 plus a .01667 chance to get a 6 on the d6. That ain't bad for a not knowing what you are doing.

 

[frankthedm]

in a genre where I want a fast, lithe hero to be good at all sorts of agility skills, it seems really weird to me that there's no benefit from the high agility score.

If you want a character better at skills, put the points into skills. If there was a correlation between main stats and skills, it would encourage making the charters even MORE lopsided. Keeping them separate is a safety feature MORE point buy systems need. Heck, that a beginning (was the term novice?) character can start with d12s in main stats for SW is one of my beefs with the system but the limited scope of the main stats helps mitigate that.

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

Welcome to a better world (Savage!)

Those who first play the game tend to have that complaint, so you are not alone. But I urge you to play the game for awhile and not tinker. There is a ton of elegance in the system and making that change has a cascading effect.

High abilities are reflected in that its easier to learn an associated skill (you learn at half cost). Also, its cheaper to pick up a skill at character creation than later (so if you think you will eventually use Shooting, pick it up at creation and increase it later when you want).

Untrained means you have no idea what you are doing. Lets take fighting - I am sure the first time someone steps into the boxing ring with someone who knows what they are doing will get their clock cleaned (d4-2). Now, you might learn quick if you have natural ability, but it is a skill, and it must be learned (just like D&D must be UnLearned ). Let take it to another skill - survival (Smarts). If you have no basic survival training, you are not going to survive if you get dumped in the desert. Being Smart allows you to learn, but it does not magically give you all the options.

Plus, you will find them d4's Ace alot in critical situations. That is a great representation of beginners luck.

Finally, the ability scores in Savage Worlds are much more important than in (say) D&D. Agility tricks, Smarts Tricks, Vigor rolls (Soaking damage), Spirit to come off Shaken, and Str for damage. Making them even more important will really skew the game in favor of Ability scores (which pulls people away from taking cool stuff like Edges or Skills when they get an Advance).

(also doing it like Cortex is a huge shift in concept - like saying 3d6 to roll to hit for D&D instead of d20 - its a much different game despite the similarities on the surface).

You should pop over to PEG's website. Clint Black, the official question answer can give you much more information about this is a much more eloquent way than I just laid out.


an aside - for a Wild Card, you have a flat 35% of succeeding if my quick math works - a .1875 chance to get an ace and more than 1 on a d4 plus a .01667 chance to get a 6 on the d6. That ain't bad for a not knowing what you are doing.

Well stated. I was going to re-reply, after taking the time to give it some more thought, but you covered the points I was going to make fairly closely to how I was going to make them.

 

[catsclaw227]

High abilities are reflected in that its easier to learn an associated skill (you learn at half cost). Also, its cheaper to pick up a skill at character creation than later (so if you think you will eventually use Shooting, pick it up at creation and increase it later when you want).

We were all SW newbies when we played our first Deadlands game, though we were all D&D veterans. Snapping the D&D paradigm proved to be tough with character creation, so I gave all my players a few mulligans to massage their PCs after the first couple of sessions.

The second time around, they did less to max a single ability score or two and more to add a spread of skills that they could add to later. After four sessions, they already had three "advancements" to add to skills if they wanted. (I was generous, giving 3xp per session in the first four sessions - they were 6hr sessions after all.) So players generally took an extra edge and bumped 1-2 low skills by two and/or bought a new skill.

Untrained means you have no idea what you are doing. Lets take fighting - I am sure the first time someone steps into the boxing ring with someone who knows what they are doing will get their clock cleaned (d4-2). Now, you might learn quick if you have natural ability, but it is a skill, and it must be learned (just like D&D must be UnLearned ). Let take it to another skill - survival (Smarts). If you have no basic survival training, you are not going to survive if you get dumped in the desert. Being Smart allows you to learn, but it does not magically give you all the options.

Plus, you will find them d4's Ace a lot in critical situations. That is a great representation of beginners luck.

It's amazing how often d4+d6 (wild die) aced on untrained skills. we had one guy roll 3 "6"s in a row (and then a 1) that gave a 17 (19-2) on an untrained skill in the first session. He basically skull smashed a walking dead with a gun butt with no fighting skill in one quick round.

I don;t know probabilities, but I can recall at least four hugely cascading aces on untrained skills in the first two sessions, and at least two more where a single ace handled the TN 4 on an untrained skill*.

*These guys were lights out on the dice the second session, though.

 

[scourger]

I figure between the d4 and your wild die, you have a pretty good chance.
Just don't forget to roll the wild die...

This and bennies. But, it is getting a little weird that my legendary heroes can't do anything well (trained) besides fight & shoot. I give them some language and knowledge skills to reflect their role-playing, though.

Edit: in our other game my hero has Jack of All Trades so that I can use Smarts skills untrained. After that at Novice rank, it's all edges & combat skills with each advance. It is still fun for me. Plus, I took Luck & Great Luck to get more bennies to affect the story with my increased chances of successes on skill checks.