Simple Mass Combat System

[DragoonLance]

My go-to subsystem for mass combat in 4e is Hard Boiled Armies. Simple but with lots of options, the basic idea is each unit becomes a 4e creature and combat plays out like a 4e combat at a larger scale, with PCs either leading units or acting like Warhammer heroes soloing through enemy units.

OBE: Hard Boiled Armies for D&D 4E - Highmoon Games | RPGNow.com

 

[Saagael]

Personally I use units as swarms. If you are looking at epic level characters, then entire towns worth of guardsman are easily just represented as one swarm. NPCs and enemies both just form into swarms and you play the combat as per normal.

A PC could single handedly hold of the 9th Royal Infantry unit, while the warlord inspires two entire units to get a free surprise charge. Meanwhile the magician is summons storms and illusions to move entire units out of position to be more easily dealt with. Clerics are getting 20 guys back into the fight with a single prayer.

This is where epic play really comes into its own. Just makes sure to describe the horrors happening on both sides. The PCs should never view their friendly swarms as expendable or replenish-able. Remember, if the enemy does 30 damage to them, it is a wound. If the enemy does 30 damage to a militia swarm, an entire family just got wiped out. By the same token, the PC warrior is carving a swath of bodies through the enemy unit, the archer is wiping out enemy leaders the second they show their heads.

I've done this before, and it worked alright. A battle like this (with 2 ally swarm of troops, and several enemy swarms of troops) would likely be an individual battle in the larger system I mentioned. If the players mess up and enemies break through the walls, then the heroes have to regroup and lead a squad or two against the attackers to push them out before reinforcements arrive.

 

[Saagael]

Maybe this is a sidetrek from your main point, but what makes the combat monotonous?

I am asking because my current game is at 25th level and is war-focused, WoBS, and I have been altering my expectations to better handle the epic level combat in a way that isn't long and drawn out, and has the opportunity to be 'EPIC' in feel and play. I have been using 'Lethal Obsidian' skill challenge to replace minor skirmishes that are really only there for attrition and still have to push very hard to endanger the PCs.
I have uses squads and platoons to pretty good effect, basically up-leveling Soldiers to be a creditable threat at 25th level. I have also put in some nasty terrain features and intelligent bad guys.

But I know I still need to change things up. This Friday I have a session where I am trying a new approach.. well, sort-of new. So if you have some ideas on how to make my epic game better, I am all ears!

On topic: If your players really like Warhammer, perhaps you could translate your 'levels' to a point-buy for Warhammer armies and use those rules, interspersed with the set peice DnD battles.
{Note: I have not played Warhammer, so I don't know how well that works out}

The issue I have is that I play online with 6 players, and we only have 3 hours a week to play. We usually don't start until a half hour into that time-slot as people trickle in and are late, so we've got 2.5 hours of actual playing. It usually boils down to either a single combat taking up the entire session, or lots of RP. There's hardly a middle-ground. Add to that players that don't pay attention, take 5 minutes to take their turn, and forget the rules half the time, it gets tedious and I really don't like having to deal with that session after session.

I hope to use this system to find a nice middle-ground between roleplaying the battle and the players' choices, while still having a tactical combat. I'll have to take a look at the Lethal Obsidian skill challenge, as that sounds right up my alley.

 

[Saagael]

I run mass battle as skill challenges. Check out my last Sand's End Campaign session in story hour to see the narrative of one we ran. It was awesome. Players really enjoyed it and it moved fast...fast...fast.

I've attached the rules I made to give me guidelines.

The first mass-combat I ran was a complex skill challenge based on a few articles that WotC put in dungeon (I believe), and it was a blast. Great fun, and it took 3 sessions to complete (with a few encounters in there). However, it felt like a big game of Mother May I, with the players asking "I'd like to use this skill do to that, is that okay?" They'd roll their skill and I'd tell them what happened. I'm hoping that this kind of setup would involve the players more the tactical choices of a mass combat, rather than using an abstract model.

I didn't put it in the first post because it wasn't relevant to my questions, but the lead up to the battle will be lots of skill challenges: training troops, building defenses/siege engines, repairing/crafting/enchanting armor and weaponry, scouting enemy forces, setting traps and sabotaging enemy forces, foraging for food, convincing nearby groups to join with them in the fight, and anything else the players can think about doing. After all of that is when the battle will take place.

 

[Saagael]

My go-to subsystem for mass combat in 4e is Hard Boiled Armies. Simple but with lots of options, the basic idea is each unit becomes a 4e creature and combat plays out like a 4e combat at a larger scale, with PCs either leading units or acting like Warhammer heroes soloing through enemy units.

OBE: Hard Boiled Armies for D&D 4E - Highmoon Games | RPGNow.com

I have that PDF actually, and have taken some inspiration from it. However, I'm looking at running the players and 10-12 squads of soldiers, with 100 squads of enemies. Using them all as swarms would result in an insanely long and tedious combat. With a simple system like the one I mentioned, you handle most of the battles in a single roll or two, leaving the big game-changing moments for the players to tackle in normal combat.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Link to my thread on Lethal Obsidian...
The most difficult part with the skill challenge is getting the players to understand that it isn't "pick your best skill and explain how you can use it", but rather "tell me what you are trying to do, even if the skill I select to roll against isn't one you focused on you will still have a solid chance at success"

I completely understand, my group is in person but we have 4 hours to fit things into and usually get two encounters in.. maybe.

If you make the enemy squads a huge sized 'swarm' that is a 2-hit minion, with a threshold of 5+1/2 level.. meaning you have to hit it decently not just cleave it to death... then the combat won't take too long and the PCs can do their combat thing.


I am going to keep poking at all the ideas here and hope some more turn up!

 

[Saagael]

Link to my thread on Lethal Obsidian...
The most difficult part with the skill challenge is getting the players to understand that it isn't "pick your best skill and explain how you can use it", but rather "tell me what you are trying to do, even if the skill I select to roll against isn't one you focused on you will still have a solid chance at success"

I completely understand, my group is in person but we have 4 hours to fit things into and usually get two encounters in.. maybe.

If you make the enemy squads a huge sized 'swarm' that is a 2-hit minion, with a threshold of 5+1/2 level.. meaning you have to hit it decently not just cleave it to death... then the combat won't take too long and the PCs can do their combat thing.


I am going to keep poking at all the ideas here and hope some more turn up!

This is good, keep poking holes; it makes me think!

Right now I've got a solid idea for how I want this to run. I could use minion swarms, but even then you've got the PCs vs about 100 minions, and that's going to take a while.

Right now I've got the whole prep part of the encounter done. Players can train troops in different areas, and the type of troop they train confers small advantages in combat. Here is what I've got:

• Soldiers: Win all ties in combat.
• Archers: Attack and assist in combat at range. Penalty to attack rolls in melee combat
• Skirmishers: Can move a second time after resolving combats
• Casters: Can attack and assist at short range. Rolls combat dice before all enemy non-casters (Like First Strike from M:tG).
• Combat medics: Adjacent allied squads that are destroyed roll a saving throw. On success, the squad remains.

Enemy squads will have similar "classes" with their own small bonuses. The next big part of the system is the PC's involvement. They're a hero unit, and in combat can attach themselves to a specific squad. Then, at any time during their turn (movement or combat resolution), the player can use a skill check to augment the squads' actions.

For example, at the start of combat, the warlord can use History to recall and utilize old tactics, allowing a nearby squad that's not in combat to move into combat with him and his squad. Or the Warden could use Endurance to take the brunt of the enemy squad's attack, allowing his forces to survive whey they would normally have taken a hit and been destroyed. Perhaps the monk uses Stealth to his his troop so that any enemy moving nearby will be ambushed.

The uses for skill are only limited by the players' creativity, and can be used for whatever the characters might want.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=84839]Saagael[/MENTION]
Sounds like you've found a system that works good for your group!

By way of tweaking the siege aspects I suggest checking out the BD&D "Siege Machine" for the different options available to attackers and defenders. I suggest it because it seems to have the same "zoom level" on mass combat that you're going for plus stats for siege weapons. It's probably more detail than you want but there lots of juicy ideas in there.

 

[Saagael]

[MENTION=84839]Saagael[/MENTION]
Sounds like you've found a system that works good for your group!

By way of tweaking the siege aspects I suggest checking out the BD&D "Siege Machine" for the different options available to attackers and defenders. I suggest it because it seems to have the same "zoom level" on mass combat that you're going for plus stats for siege weapons. It's probably more detail than you want but there lots of juicy ideas in there.

Is there someplace online I can look this up? I'd be interested to read it.

 

[Quickleaf]

Is there someplace online I can look this up? I'd be interested to read it.

It's in the Rules Cyclopedia hardback. If that's not handy for you, I could email you the relevant excerpt.