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Help my Kobolds spank my players


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Hmmm...

Short Answer: No.

Longer Answer: I don't really want to help you do this because I'm afraid you are being lured in by the dark side. Are you sure you really want to go this route? Search your feelings, DM; beware ego, fantasies involving terrified players, gleefully rubbing your hands together, and things of this sort. Of the dark side they are, and once you go down this path, forever will it dominate your gaming; consume you it will.

Before doing this, read the following threads:
Tuckers kobolds really tough challenge.html
DM tricks challenge tough pcs weaker enemies.html

Even Longer Answer: Ok, maybe. If you are sure you are motivated by the best reasons and are perfectly willing to see your creations slaughtered ignobly by a triumphant team of PC's that have bested your kobolds without effort. At 6th level you are hitting just about the limit of where you can reasonably challenge a party with Kobolds in earlier editions. By 10th level, that's behind you, and don't bother. In 4e, I suspect that players have fewer options for dealing with kobolds, kobolds don't imply 1/2 HD humanoids as a given, and its easier to obtain 'Tucker's Kobold' results within the rules without resorting to cheating and metagaming.

You'll note if you read the above threads that I give what I think is a pretty good answer to your question here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/194209-dm-tricks-challenge-tough-pcs-weaker-enemies-2.html#post3475189. However, any attempt to make weak NPC's a threat to much higher level PC's involves large amounts of metagaming by the DM to select the tactics and the exact answers to what is effective will very from rules set to rules set. While my suggestions are probably system independent, the specific system may allow additional possibilities.

There are a lot of things that I consider stinky cheese though, unworthy of a creative DM:

1) Elaborate and expensive mechanical traps, often with magical components.
2) Elaborate and expensive consumable resources.
3) Delicate resources which seem to exist in stasis fields until the PC's come along, including monsters that would be difficult or expensive to contain, control, or care for for long periods but really anything that you can't imagine lasting for days or months without the need for maintenance.
4) Massive amounts of expendable magical resources of a veritably unlimited nature.

If you want to do that sort of stuff, then do 'Tucker's Duergar' and don't pretend that they are simple kobolds. There is a vast difference between creativity and wealth. And DM can design an 'I win' button. To the extent that this excercise has any point at all, it is a demonstration of how much you can do with how little. If you want to be impressive, don't use anything impressive at all. Let the blighters fight in extraordinary ways using purely mundane resources (and rules).
 

I started another group with old players in Return to the Keep on the Borderlands
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Reported.

So anyways.. I personally think of Kobolds as creatures who will protect their warrens. Same thing with Goblins, though Goblins usually don't have as much deviousness :D.

Anything that a group of creatures could do in a period of time to protect their warrens that would make it difficult to trip themselves is fine by me. That is why I say using weight-based traps are smart and not unknown in cultures as protections. Snares, tripwires, deadfalls, use of the environment... I don't like the use of 'tame monsters' so much, though I do like 'hired help' from the likes of those who get paid tribute to live in the Kobold's areas. Ogres, darkkin, spiderfolk, or others could be led by a Kobold leader to believe they are 'worshipped' or revered, even the leaders of the group... But ehh, big is dumb, small is smart, small can hide, and small will kill.

Slainte,

-Loonook.
 

Longer Answer: I don't really want to help you do this because I'm afraid you are being lured in by the dark side. Are you sure you really want to go this route? Search your feelings, DM; beware ego, fantasies involving terrified players, gleefully rubbing your hands together, and things of this sort. Of the dark side they are, and once you go down this path, forever will it dominate your gaming; consume you it will.

Fear not for my soul, as I already turned it in. I look fetching in black.


Before doing this, read the following threads: [...]

Even Longer Answer: [...]

To sum it up: Don't be a dick.

That's cool, I don't plan to be. I want to have fun and that only happens if everyone is.


If you want to do that sort of stuff, then do 'Tucker's Duergar' and don't pretend that they are simple kobolds.

Here you lose me. Simple kobolds? What do you mean? What would it change if they were duergar?
 

Here you lose me. Simple kobolds? What do you mean? What would it change if they were duergar?

I believe I know what he means.

Kobolds, being "simple" do not have access to high level magic, expensive components etc. So all their traps should be while potentially intricate, something that can be created with time and effort in a mundane fashion.

If you add a lot of dispel magics or massive magical death runes to your traps, you exceed the standard capabilities of kobolds and should use duergar (who have magic and possibly class level style abilities).

forgive if I miss read.


.
 

I believe I know what he means.

Kobolds, being "simple" do not have access to high level magic, expensive components etc. So all their traps should be while potentially intricate, something that can be created with time and effort in a mundane fashion.

Well, yeah. That's the whole point, isn't it? Kobolds are feeble, but Kobolds are smart.
 

Here you lose me. Simple kobolds? What do you mean? What would it change if they were duergar?

SkidAce understands me rightly; expectations about the monsters available resources.

Coming as I do from 1e, the sort of resources available to a monster were well defined - how many would appear, how many would have armor, what sort of weapons each would carry and in what proportions, how many seige engines was available to a tribe, how many pets and of what sort the tribe might have, how many leveled individuals would exist within it, what chance a spell caster was available, and the total worth of valuable goods owned by the tribe was. The DM of course could invoke Rule Zero to alter the situation as he saw fit, but if he altered the resources available to a tribe very significantly, he could no more claim to be using kobolds than if all the kobolds had 4HD. One of the implicit assumptions of defeating a party with 'merely kobolds' is that the foe is 'merely kobolds' as defined in the MM. If in fact the kobolds are 4HD, wear platemail, and have magic weapons they aren't 'merely kobolds'. Quite obviously, if you provide a foe with enough resources, the foe becomes challenging, but equally obviously you aren't emphasizing the fact that your 'mere kobolds' are defeating the PC's through cunning and intelligence, but rather by virtue of having 4HD and a +6 bonus to hit. By making them 'kobolds' are you trying to pretend you are doing something impressive - that DM that can 'beat' the PC's with mere kobolds?

It's never impressive when a DM beats the PC's. The DM can ALWAYS beat the PC's. There are some DM's that struggle with this, but they are usually the ones that can't throw their subconscious sense of fairness out the window.

What I'm suggesting here is that if you feel the need to attack the party with a group of monsters with every possible material advantage, don't make the mistake of fooling yourself as the DM by making those monsters 'kobolds', because in doing so you are probably giving in to a desire to flatter yourself. Instead, if you really must make the monsters high tech foes with extensive magic, high level leaders, omniscient understanding, telepathic levels of coordination, and seemingly unlimited resources, consider how you feel different about your creations if you make the Duergar or Drow or some other race already known for having all of these things.

Everyone knows that treating Drow in this fashion is 'cheese', and Drow are the original 'Gary's Kobolds' - humanoid foes which can face the PC's having every possible advantage. Relabelling such a foe as 'kobolds' when they are clearly not strikes me as something DMs do when their underlying motivation is to win acclaim from their players for the DMs cunning and nastiness, but I think they are likely to be disappointed in that regard. Whether kobolds or drow, if I get the feeling that a particular race is acting as the DM's PC - the thing in the setting he identifies with and has vested his ego in and which he will therefore not allow them to be less than impressive - then I'm probably not going to be impressed. I'll be much more impressed by a DM's restraint in this matter - foes with limited resources, weaknesses, imperfect defenses, and so forth. The less you go beyond them being 'merely kobolds', and the more challenge you can manage while being fair and reasonable, the more impressed with your design I'll be.

This is why, if your intention is to 'help me make them shiver at the sight of a kobold', I'm very skeptical that you've retained or will be able to retain your proper distance and neutrality in your role as DM as referee. I'm skeptical entirely of the goal you are setting out, and so suggest, does, "help me make them shiver at the sight of a duergar" have the same ring to it? If you must use kobolds as an excercise in design, first use actual kobolds, and secondly understand that its a pretty trivial excercise in design for an experienced DM. The only trick is realizing the kobolds are irrelevant to the scenario and have no real role in providing the challenge. They are there mainly to personalize the real threat, in the way that Acererak personalizes the threat of the Tomb of Horrors even though he's not visible through most of it.

I can help you with your goals. I can make PC's shiver at the sight of kobolds. But what is the point really here? It's pointless for the DM to prove he can challenge the players. It's a trivially easy excercise to create wholly unfair situations. What do you really want?
 
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SkidAce understands me rightly; expectations about the monsters available resources.

[...]

If in fact the kobolds are 4HD, wear platemail, and have magic weapons they aren't 'merely kobolds'. Quite obviously, if you provide a foe with enough resources, the foe becomes challenging, but equally obviously you aren't emphasizing the fact that your 'mere kobolds' are defeating the PC's through cunning and intelligence, but rather by virtue of having 4HD and a +6 bonus to hit.

I get where you're coming from: I can boost the kobolds as I wish, but that defeats the point. The point is that there's no such thing as "merely". The point is that a smart and well prepared bunch of minions are a force to be reckoned with. I doubt there's gonna be many non-minion combatants, other than a few casters and some elite soldiers.

Now, there's nothing wrong with encountering Super-Kobolds, as long as it makes in-game sense, but that's not what I'm going for.
 

The point is that a smart and well prepared bunch of minions are a force to be reckoned with.

Probably not. You have to resign yourself to the fact that a bunch of minions aren't a force to be reckoned with. What you should be aiming for is that a bunch of minions, played intelligently and given reasonable advantages of terrain, can emotionally engage your players as foes. You should be less delighting in the prospect that the kobolds will be feared, than in the prospect that they will be hated and that your players will take extraordinary glee in slaughtering kobold minions by the hundreds. If you do that much, you'll have done your job well because your players won't be bored which is the entirely too probable result of forcing your players to face large numbers of minions and the all too likely dull repitition that that involves. I'd much rather see a fellow DM sweating not how he can beat the players, but how he can manage to keep them from being bored.

But its too much to hope that they'll be 'a force to be reckoned with', and chasing that fool's gold will cause you to sacrifice your nuetrality and fairness in order to achieve it. You must not be rooting for your minions. You give them a fair shake and a fair chance, and that's as much as you give them. As a DM the PC's are your heroes, the ones you root for, and the ones you hope to see winning. Sure, you put big obstacles in their way, but only so that you can vicariously enjoy the thrill of the PC's overcoming them.

Ok, that spiel out of the way, what are your terrain motifs? I see you are in iceland IRL, and that the PC's have just left a volcano/geothermal region in game? Do you want to stick with the vulcan themes, or is a more sylvan or pastoral setting preferred?
 
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I would definitely not have a single passage greater than 3 feet in height. In 4e terms, I would say that any medium-sized PC grants combat advantage (which kobold skirmishers should definitely take advantage of) and bows can not be used (maybe shortbows could be used point-blank). Crossbows, of course, could be used without problems--and, naturally, the kobolds should be so equipped.

That's a good rule of thumb. Noted.

It will of course depend on the framing, whether their territory was built by themselves or adapted.


Trap-triggering-traps? You fiend! :D

You do not simply walk into Koboldor. You limp, if lucky.


I call this one "Toasty". It plays on the idea of trigger vs. trap, and it's best as one of the first kobold traps the PCs encounter (while kobolds still seem like comic relief).

Ah, I can see the party scratching their heads. "What's the point of this? It doesn't do anything! Alarm system, maybe?"


If it's 4e, make a "swarm" of kobolds. Or more than one type.

Kobolds are known for traps and there's no reason you can't have traps and monsters in one encounter. I would avoid pit traps and use cooler things like lightning generators. (If the PCs are good, they could take control of these generators and blast back!)

I foresee a lot of the kobold strategy consisting of trying to "control" the PCs into traps, but I think I'll stay away from fancy machinery. And only very low-level magic.


[...] balance traps that send things flinging back a la a teeter-totter [...]

Solid suggestions, but I don't really understand what you mean by the quoted part.

I don't like the use of 'tame monsters' so much, though I do like 'hired help' from the likes of those who get paid tribute to live in the Kobold's areas. Ogres, darkkin, spiderfolk, or others could be led by a Kobold leader to believe they are 'worshipped' or revered, even the leaders of the group... But ehh, big is dumb, small is smart, small can hide, and small will kill.

I think it's gonna be all kobolds, all the time.
 

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